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05-01-1972 Minutesf) rJ I City of Salina, Kansas Commissioners' Meeting May 1, 1972 The Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners met in the Commissioners' Room, City -County Building, on Monday, May 1, 1972, at four o'clock p.m. The Mayor asked everyone to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag and a Moment of Silent Prayer. There were present: Mayor Jack Weisgerber, Chairman presiding Commissioner Robert C. Caldwell Commissioner Norma G. Cooper Commissioner Mike Losik, Jr. comprising.a quorum of the Board, also: W. E. Harris, Director of Administration L. 0. Bengtson, City Attorney D. L. Harrison, City Clerk Absent: Commissioner Leon L. Ashton Norris D. Olson, City Manager The Minutes of the Regular Meeting of April 24, 1972, were approved as mailed. THE MAYOR PROCLAIMED the Month of May, 1972 - "POPPY MONTH" and May 6, 1972 - "POPPY DAY". The proclamation was read by Mrs. Harold Scribner, President of the American Legion Auxiliary. She was accompanied by Bessie Edward, Poppy Chairman. THE MAYOR PROCLAIMED the Week of April 30 through May 7, 1972 - "RODEO WEEK". The proclamation was read by Mr. AI Naes, of the Sheriff's Mounted Patrol and Rescue Squad. The Mayor said that last Monday, May 1st was proclaimed Law Day. He said he had the privilege of being at Schilling when the Citizenship Certificates were presented to 40 young people, who were born overseas and who are now living in this Country. He said it was an important and a very meaningful ceremony. He reminded us that many times those who came by citizenship so easily, sometimes take their citizenship too lightly. The Mayor recognized a troop of Girl Scouts, who were in attendance. They were Troop 38, from Sunset School. The girls are working on their Active Citizen Badge. STAFF AGENDA A MOTION was made by Commissioner Caldwell, seconded by Commissioner Cooper to set the date of May 15, 1972, as the date to receive bids for the Gasoline Supply for Central Garage and the Fire Department, and for the Diesel Fuel Supply, and instructed the City Clerk to advertise for bids. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. A LETTER was received from the Salina City Planning Commission recommending the approval of Petition Number 3230, which was filed by Ronald P. Thompson, 1416 South Santa Fe, requesting amendment of Section 11, District "D" (Local Business District), Sub -section 20, of the Zoning Ordinance Number 6613, defining schools as primary and secondary. A motion was made by Commissioner Caldwell, seconded by Commissioner Cooper that the recommendation of the Salina City Planning Commission be accepted and the ordinance amending the Zoning Ordinance be introduced for first reading. Commissioner Cooper said that she thinks Mr. Thompson has complied with all the requirements and probably a few additional ones, with regard to this particular ordinance, because he was denied a cereal malt beverage license by this Commission. She said, as a matter of fact, she made the original motion because of its proximity to the school and to the church. She said he went through all the proper procedures to get this corrected, and the school doesn't seem to have any opposition to Mr. Thompson's facility out there. He will have to comply with all the food and beverage requirements that any other establishment does. She said she probably thinks they are setting a precedent by doing this, but at the same time, since the State Legislature says it is acceptable, and the school doesn't object, she thinks the Commission is required to do it. Commissioner Losik said that since the ordinance is going on first reading, there is still an opportunity for anybody in that area, or the school, or church, who has opposition to this change of the Zoning Ordinance, between now and the time it goes on second reading, to come forward and be recognized. The Mayor called for a vote on the question. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. Ordinance Passed:�$�g1L Number: 2204 REPORT FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY on the City's liability for mini -bike riding on City owned property. (Referred to the City Attorney by Commissioner Cooper at the April 24, 1972 meeting) The City Attorney said, as he indicated last week, he went into this a little deeper and he said he is of the opinion, at the present time, that where we have not invite( them or have not authorized it officially, we would be under no liability whatsoever. He said he still feels that the case would hold this out, that the operation of a park, or anything such as that, is a governmental function, and, if no charge is made for it, we certainly would have governmental immunity. He said he thinks on just bare land, which we might own, which has not been designated as a park, or anything else, that our liability would be basically the same as that of the individual citizen. If a person comes on there as a trespasser we are under no obligation whatsoever, other than not to willfully injure someone. If we authorize this, then probably they would have the status of the invitee, and certainly our liability is less stringent than if we are charging for it. I don't feel that possibily, if you were to allow mini -bike riders in this park, you would probably incur a legal liability. I think if we did have a bad injury on City property, it is like any other place, we are going to get sued as the owner of the property, and this is not to say that we are not going to get sued. It is expensive to defent a law suit, even if you win them. He said he questions the liability of the City, if there is no charge made for the service. He said he thinks it boils down to the fact that it is a matter of policy, whether you, as a Commission, wish to authorize the use of the property for that purpose or not. Commissioner Cooper asked if they, as a Commission, have to designate what this property can be used for. She said it is just city property. She said if the people in the area, who are really utilizing it, want to play ball on it, want to roller skate on it, want to ride mini -bikes on it, or whatever they do on it, do we have to qualify what they can do. Can't they simply use it? The City Attorney explained that you are going to have to determine. You, as City Commissioners are the owner of that property. He said if. he, as an individual, were the owner of that property out there, the same as the City is the owner, the people would have to come to him and ask permission to use it. Now, if it is designated as a park, you have indicated it is available for use by anyone. You own that property, you certainly have the right to keep people off, if you want to; you also have the right to authorize the use of that for a playground or for any purpose you wish. It is no different than if he were the owner of it. The people of the neighborhood would have to come to me and ask my permission to use it for any purpose, or they would be guilty as a trespasser. They would be trespassing on government property. Commissioner Cooper said, OK if it is city property, and designated, say, as a play area, this is a pretty general category. You wouldn't have to define it any more than that would you? The City Attorney explained that there are a lot of play areas in a lot of parks and if the Commission is going to allow the mini -bikes, they might be opening up more than just one place out there, because this has been designated as a park. It is known as Park Number 7, in the Salina Park Study. The Director of Administration, said we have eight little pieces of property designated as parks in the Park Study. You can hardly permit a use in one park that is not permitted in another. Commissioner Cooper asked if there are any areas in residential areas that really wouldn't qualify as a park, that might be better utilized as some kind of activity area? The City Attorney said they are areas where the kids can get off the street to play ball and so forth. 1 1 D Commissioner Cooper said we have a city ordinance which prohibits mini -bike riding and motor -bike riding, and things like this, in the City Parks and no one wants to promote things like this. The City Attorney said there is no ordinance. Commissioner Cooper said she thought the City Manager said we did have one. Mr. Harris said the ordinance was drafted and proposed,about three years ago, but it was never adopted. Mrs. Max Morgan asked, "What do you call the old municipal airport, where they play golf on one side and you can get a permit from the City Clerk to ride your mini -bikes on the other side. Is that called a city park out there? Why can't we do it on this field then?" Mr. Harris explained that the permits are for the use of the concrete. Mrs. Morgan replied, "But they ride their mini -bikes and motorcycles out there, why can't we obtain a permit to use this field, if the City isn't liable?" Mr. Harris said this, again, would be up to the City Commission. If they want to set that policy. He explained that at the old airport property the Commission said it is permissible, by the use of these permits, for various things, such as drag racing, testing cars, model airplane flying, any activity, but it was established by the City Commission as a policy. Mayor Weisgerber said the one thing that bothers him on this thing, is all the publicity it has had. If mini -bike riding is permitted in this area, then there is a good possibility it will wind up as a nice mini -bike track area. If it is the only area designated, then you will have people coming from all over town to bring their kids to ride their mini -bikes. The City Attorney said it certainly would not be limited to the children of that area. If you open it up, it would be available to anyone in the City. Commissioner Losik said, "I think what we have here is the beginning of something that I think we are going to have to face up to and do for the people of our community. Now, this is just a start. We have little parcels of land scattered all through the area, that even though they may be designated as parks, other than mowing of the grass, there is nothing to indicate that it is. I see no reason why we couldn't designate those areas for this use. This would eliminate, in part, where people from all over would come into that one area. We do have these types scattered through, and I think on a combination here again, to protect the parents and to protect the people, that a permit be given for a period of say three months for a certain youngster, driving a certain vehicle, which they own, to be utilized in each specific area for that. This would go ahead then,) don't feel we would need to police it, in the event there would be an unfortunate injury, the individual having that, as far as the City, it would be released from any liability by virtue of getting this permit. I think this would control itself. It would provide a facility for this type of thing, and as far as the children getting to and from these areas, this would have to be done on the part of the parents. It would be no different than a grown person driving an off-road vehicle. This would give them the ability to use it, and, again it is idle property laying there. These people are tax payers. If we can help these youngsters in a certain locale, and keep them off the street, I think we are accomplishing something. There are going to be some few problems in this, there always is, there always will be, but I think the spirit and intent is fine. I might add that this has a similarity, it isn't perhaps the same thing, but recently, in the Journal, we had a problem at Clay Center where the cycling and softball problem was worked out, and this again, it happened to be a county controversy and the County Commissioners specified certain times when the cycles could be ridden and certain times when the ball players could be there, so I think we can work these out if we look at it in a positive vein, to see how we can do it, rather than how can we keep from doing it. And I would like to give it a try along these lines. I think Larry explained that our liability wouldn't be any greater on this than it would be on some of these other things, and if we make an effort to do this, and of course we are going to have to respect the church there when services are on, but the people were already doing this. Not only in just this area, but I think we can start looking around at some of these other little idle pieces of land we have that could be designated. Bring a mower over, and let the kids go to it. Mrs. Martha Thomas said, "Excuse me just a minute, are you still talking about mini -bikes, Mr. Losik?" 98 Commissioner Losik replied, "Yes, off-road vehicles." Mrs. Thomas said this could get way out of hand with motorcycles, if they misconstrue that. Commissioner Losik said I think there would be no misconstruing by anybody that owns one. He knows whether it is designated and built, and it states that it is an off-road vehicle. This automatically earmarks it and takes it out of the street and mororcycle type of vehicle, or motorcycle, which is licensed through the State. Commissioner Caldwell asked who the permit would be issued to. Commissioner Losik said the parent is the one who should release the City from liability. Commissioner Cooper said the City Attorney said that if we didn't charge, we didn't assume any large degree of liability. The City Attorney said this is true. When we went to the old airport, we went this permit release, because, if they didn't have a permit, they would be trespassing, and certainly you have no liability to a trespasser, other than to refrain from willfully injuring him. If we say they can do it out here by permit only, and if they come in and get a permit, we ask them to sign a release, releasing the City of any liability. This is what we do at the airport. If the person is under age, we ask his parents to sign, so we have a place for parents. So really, if there is an accident out there, if he has a permit, we are probably going to eliminate a law suit because they have released the City of any liability. If he doesn't have a permit, he is a trespasser, and he may sue us but our obligation toward him is we owe no duty toward him to maintain a safe place. Commissioner Cooper asked if we could designate these small little pockets of city property as being the activity areas that would include, but wouldn't be confined just to, but would include mini -bike riding by the under 16 age group for the off-street type vehicle? The City Attorney said he thinks they are going to have to designate certain areas where the permit is good, because if you don't, certainly we don't want them riding across the grass in Oakdale Park or Sunset Park, or on the Government Center here. He said the Commission is going to have to designate what areas he can do this in, the same as we designated the drag strip out at the airport. We designated the concrete portion of that. You as Commissioners are going to have to designate the area that the permit is good in. He said he didn't think they could say it is good on any city property, because he thinks we would be in trouble. Commissioner Losik said, "This is just exactly my thinking on this. It brings this up, this permit type thing in designated areas that this permit is going to be good on. This will take and respect the ordinance we have regarding motorcycles in the park and so forth. It will respect the areas where parents desire that this not be earmarked as an area, because some of these pockets are in areas where there are no children at all around. They are older folks, But starting with this particular area, this would be the start to establish. We are going to have problems, we might even have complaints from people who live in that area, but it is a start in the right direction. It would provide areas where these children ought to be in. If the parents release us from any of this liability, this is where it lies. I see no reason why we should deny this when they are willing to go that far." Mr. Harris suggested that before you give a blanket approval of all these areas, each one be given a close check to see if there are any obvious problems that we should be aware of before we designate it. Commissioner Cooper said it wouldn't be with a blanket approval, we would start where the request was made, with that particular area. Unless a request is made, it will not be pursued. She said the City Attorney mentioned, if you do it in one place, you will have to do it in another, but unless someone says now, OK the City has a piece of property here we would like to be able to do the same thing here, as they are doing on South 81, or whatever the legal description is, we would not pursue it any further. Commissioner Losik said we don't want to give a blanket approval. This is what Larry brought out, that this would control, but it wouldn't al.iow them to ride on any city property, and if they request these areas be designated for that, we could do it, but here is a start. Commissioner Cooper added, if we don't get any additional requests, then we won't enlarge on it. 1 1 1 The City Attorney said he thinks it is a matter of policy. You could say we are going to authorize mini -bikes in this area here, if they first secure a permit from the City Clerk, and I assume it will be a permit similar to the one we use for the old municipal airport, releasing us of any liability. Commissioner Losik asked, "Designating the specific areas?" The City Attorney said, "That is right." Commissioner Losik said, "I think the parents of that area would be willing to do that." 99 After a lengthy discussion of what a mini -bike is, or isn't, a motion was made by Commissioner Caldwell, seconded by Commissioner Losik to refer the matter to the City Attorney, to get together with a member of the Police Department, to draw up some guidelines, keeping in mind the off-road vehicles and the ages of the children. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. REPORT FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY on the procedure to eliminate the approval of appropriation ordinances. (Referred to the City Attorney by Commissioner Losik, at the April 24, 1972 meeting) The City Attorney presented the Commissioners with a copy of an appropriation ordinance, which he said, if it is adopted at this time, it would eliminate the necessity of adopting an appropriation ordinance each time for each payroll and each payment of bills. He said this basically follows the procedure that Topeka and Wichita use, except they they do it at the first meeting of every year. One appropriation ordinance and it appropriates the entire budget as set out. He said if you, as Commissioners, wish to adopt something like this for the balance of this year, then at the first meeting in January, you could adopt a similar ordinance for 1973. The City Attorney explained that this would not include contracts, or eliminate the necessity of engineer's estimates, where we let a contract. These are not budgetary items. Anything that is in the budget would be approved. Commissioner Losik asked if this meets the legal sufficiency for us to do this once a year. The City Attorney explained that Wichita and Topeka do it once a year, the first meeting of the year, and they have no further appropriation ordinances. A motion was made by Commissioner Losik, seconded by Commissioner Cooper to introduce the ordinance entitled: "AN ORDINANCE appropriating money from the various funds to pay payrolls and claims against the City of Salina, Saline County, Kansas, for the balance of the fiscal year of 1972, as provided in Kansas Statutes Annotated 13-2601." for first reading. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. Ordinance Passed: Number 226 REPORT FROM THE CITY ENGINEER on the intersection of Fourth and Crawford, and Broadway and Crawford. (Referred to the City Engineer at the April 17, 1972 meeting) The City Engineer recommended the traffic lights not be installed at the intersection of Fourth and Crawford, as it does not meet the criteria set out in the Uniform Traffic Manual for the installation of signalized traffic control. He reported the estimated cost of signal equipment at this location would be $24,000.00. Mr. Donald McConnell said he did not see any evidence of a traffic survey within the last two weeks, and asked when it was made. The City Engineer said a man was there from 7 A.M. to 7 P.M. on April 18th. Mr. McConnell said one man could not make a proper count of all the cars and the turns. Mr. Boyer explained the type of instrument used, which shows all the legs of the intersection, and that he has buttons to push to make the accurate count. 100 Commissioner Cooper commented that he must be someone who is experienced in this sort of thing. The City Engineer confirmed that he is. The City Engineer agreed that Fourth Street would be much more effective if it were widened. Mr. McConnell presented a petition, which will be on the agenda on May 8, 1972. Commissioner Cooper asked if Fourth Street and Crawford could be studied from a different point of view, and a recommendation submitted, for an alternative to the installation of traffic lights. Mr. Boyer said they are in agreement with Mr. McConnell, that some type of change would be beneficial on Fourth Street. A motion was made by Commissioner Caldwell, seconded by Commissioner Cooper to accept the recommendation of the City Engineer to deny the installation of traffic lights at the intersection of Fourth and Crawford. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. The City Engineer also reported on the intersection of Crawford and Broadway and recommended the traffic signals at this intersection be adjusted to correlate with the demand of the increased Eastbound traffic turning to the North; and the Southbound traffic turning to the East. The equipment was designed with built-in flexibility, so the signal timing could be adjusted to meet the changing demand. A motion was made by Commissioner Losik, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to accept the recommendation of the City Engineer. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. THE CITY ENGINEER filed Final Estimate on Engineering Project 71-536 for water main improvement, for J. S. Frank Construction Company, Inc., in the amount of $1,974.17. A motion was made by Commissioner Losik, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to approve the Final Estimate. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. THE CITY ENGINEER filed Estimate Number 1 on Engineering Project 72-542 for street improvements, for Smoky Hill, Inc., in the amount of $18,741.15. A motion was made by Commissioner Cooper, seconded by Commissioner Losik to approve the estimate. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. THE CITY ENGINEER filed Estimate Number 1 on Engineering Project 72-546 for the Demolition of Unsafe Structures, for Bob Albers Construction, Inc., in the amount of $1,980.00. A motion was made by Commissioner Losik, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to approve the estimate. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. COMMISSION AGENDA "DISCUSS AND RECONSIDER THE CITY OF SALINA'S POSITION ON S.B. 333, PUBLIC EMPLOYER - PUBLIC EMPLOYEE RELATION LAW, AS REQUESTED IN LETTER DATED MARCH 7, 1972, FROM LOCAK # 782, IN-EP.NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS." (Commissioner Losik) (Tabled at the April 24, 1972 meeting until all five Commissioners are present) Mayor Weisgerber said the motion last week stated that it be tabled until all five Commissioners are present; so it should be placed on the agenda for discussion at the meeting next week. "DISCUSS THE CITY PROVIDING OFFICE SPACE FOR CULTURAL ARTS COMMISSION PRIOR TO THE LETTING OF BIDS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE SALINA COMMUNITY THEATRE BUILDING." (Commissioner Losik). (Referred at the April 17, 1972 meeting) Commissioner Losik said this is also a very controversial subject. We are running close on money, and moved this be tabled until all five Commissioners are present. Mr. Boyer had estimates of the cost, and Commissioner Cooper said she would like to see them. Mr. Boyer gave each Commissioner a copy of the estimate. The Motion was seconded by Commissioner Cooper, Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. r I "CLARIFICATION OF THE COMPOSITION OF THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS AND OTHER PERSONNEL COMPRISING A QUORUM OF THE BOARD, AND THE VOTING PRIVILEGE OF EACH." (Commissioner Losik) Mayor Weisgerber said he is curious, and asked what he is talking about? Commissioner Losik said he is too! He said, "Actually, I have had many questions asked of me, that I couldn't find a cut and dried answer to it. I could find piece meal in the Code. What I would like to know is, we list three specific people who are listed in the minutes and the makeup of this is comprising a quorum of the Board, for example we show the City Attorney, the City Manager and the City Clerk. I can't answer why those specific three would be shown as comprising this, and as I say, I couldn't answer the question when asked of me. I do know that in the Code it states that the City Manager, as such, is a member, but other than that I don't know or should there be, for example the City Engineer, the Director of Administration. What is the basis for listing those as Commission members?" Mr. Harris said he didn't think there is any set rule on the way the minutes are made up. He said the wording that is used here tends to indicate that the Commissioners here comprise the quorum, and the minutes state that also present were these three, the City Manager, City Attorney and the City Clerk. Commissioner Cooper said that isn't the way it reads'. Commissioner Losik said the minutes say, "comprising a quorum of the Board, also" Mr. Harris explained the wording used at the beginning of the minutes of each Commissioners' Meeting to Commissioner Losik and Commissioner Cooper. Commissioner Losik said, "OK, that explains that. We will need no further explanation of that, and I think we have in the Code various places that various individuals of the staff should be present for questions. I think this takes care of that." Commissioner Losik continued, " I would like to have something, and I don't want to arouse any speculation by citing this example, but recently here, there was a news release regarding another City that had a Commissioner that resigned and the four remaining Commissioners were having a deadlock as to who they would appoint to fill that vacancy. Now, this brings up my question. Would there ever be, at any time, any of the additional people shown here, for example the City Attorney, the City Manager or the City Clerk that would be authorized to vote, and if so, when would that be?" The City Attorney explained that there is only one time that anyone other than a member of the Commission could vote. The State Law specifically provides, in the event of a vacancy on the Board of Commissioners, that the other four shall elect a member to fill the vacancy. It provides, if they cannot agree, then the City Attorney shall cast the deciding vote. Commissioner Cooper asked if this was State Statute? Commissioner Losik said this is not to arouse speculation. This created some questions again because it did happen in one of our cities. The City Attorney said the only time a member, other than a City Commissioners, can vote in any matter, and this is specifically provided by State Law. Commissioner Losik asked if they are unable to get a quorum, in number, could the City Attorney fill in to provide that additional member? The City Attorney said, "No, you would not have a meeting." Commissioner Losik said, "OK, this is what I wanted to know. I think this answers the question and I can intelligently answer to the people who have asked it of me." "POTENTIAL TRAFFIC HAZARD AT SOUTH 9th, 81 BYPASS NEAR THE Y AND BRANN'S NEW STORE." (Commissioner Losik) Commissioner Losik said he knows there has been some news release on this recently, and what he wanted to ask is, is there any portion of that area out there that is controlled by the State, such as what we ran into farther down in the Magnolia Area? -4 - The The City Engineer replied that as far as we know, it is in the mill for the State to turn the authority back to the cities, on city routes; but, they have not turned it back yet, so actually as of now, yes, the State still has the authority. Commissioner Losik asked, "Do we have any idea whether this will, whether they will specifically, do we know we are going to get it eventually? Is there any idea when they would do it? The reason I ask it that way, Dean, is that, if they are going to take, say, six months from now, it would mean, if we are going to want any controls out there, we would have to coordinate it with them for their approval, in part, like we did below. Now my point in asking this was, if it looks like there is going to be any delay, I would like to recommend that we start seeking this cooperation or approval from the State on this basis, so that if we do find that we need to do something, we don't get hung up like we did before." The City Engineer said he doesn't know of any way of knowing, unless he calls them He said they have had the public hearing. A short time after the public hearing, if there are no strenuous objections, they make up their minds, and give it back to us. He continued by saying that it has not been done yet. He also said that on the processing of the one down south, we requested that prior to the construction of the mall, but they would not make a recommendation because they did not know what the traffic would be. They will not make a study and recommend for anticipated traffic. They wait until the traffic is there, study the traffic, where it is coming from, what turns they are going to make, the repetition of the turns and so forth, and then make the recommendations on the actual traffic; so we could get no recommendation for lights until after the mall had opened, and the traffic pattern had set itself. We asked them and they came out and made a count prior to that, but the only thing they would say was that there is nothing there to require lights. They said they would have to wait to see what the traffic is, and then recommend on the basis of that. Mayor Weisgerber said this is going to be an engineering problem and one we will work out as far as lights are concerned, but lights aren't going to be the true problem. It's going to be attempting to change lanes. If someone coming south on Ninth and wants to go into Brann's, they are up against the problem of changing lanes. The problem is how is he going to switch lanes. He said it seems to him that is where the traffic hazard is going to be. It may be necessary to make a double line and not let him change lines. The City Engineer said this, of course, is the obvious thing, just to eliminate the traffic hazard, looking at traffic safety. He said he didn't imagine that Brann's will be very happy with us. Commissioner Losik said, "Along these lines we have brought out this problem, now I would like to get clear. There are two factors involved, first of all, is what we are trying to anticipate that first of all we would have to have approval and/or cooperation of the State to do this. But at this stage, this is what I want to get clear, what can we do to prepare ourselves, in advance, here, that there are two criterias, in other words, the State could tomorrow say, here it is City, it's yours. What are we prepared to start doing then, or if in the event the State doesn't come back here for maybe six or nine months, what are we prepared to do, or what can we do? What are we doing? This brings in mind we are going to have to start looking ahead on this thing, which according to the Journal, the City Manager had asked for this on the 27th of March. Now it appears to me that if we were working on this since the 27th of March, we sure kept, it was a well kept secret, because nobody knew about it, and people were starting to get up in arms, when really, let's face it, there isn't anything we can do, legally, so what are we actually doing and what can we do to prepare ourselves if and when this becomes a hazard, or if it doesn't, that we are in a position to jump the gun, rather than wait like we did on it at Magnolia." The City Engineer said he is in agreement with the State. He can see no way that anyone can, at this time, tell what traffic problems will develop there. He said they can check the obvious things such as to see that the sight distance is opened up, and for instance that the stop signs are properly placed. There is no way to know if Brann's will increase the lane change enough to be a real hazard. A furniture store is not necessarily a high vehicle drawing card. They have always been on Broadway, and have had no real traffic problems there. 1 1 1 *w Mayor Weisgerber commented about the intersection of Magnolia Road and South Ninth Street, and the publicity it gets. He said he thinks it is a bad intersection, and it will stay a bad intersection, no matter how it is signalized. There are going to be some terriffic accidents at that corner, lights, or no lights, southbound, no matter what. He said it is a corner a person needs to be quite alert on, and watch whatever traffic there is, because there is a fairly high speed approach to that and lights will help, but they are not going to remedy the accidents. The City Engineer said that is why, in the pre -thinking, he wouldn't even think of lights for this problem. It may need a major reroute or something. He said our highest accident rates, right now, are at the intersections where we have traffic signals. There are some types of accidents which are created by traffic signals. Just as soon as you install a traffic light, you start having rear end accidents. Commissioner Losik said, "Well, going back through this again. This is real fine, we stand informed. I would like to make an addition to what we have discussed here, and realizing the fact that we have very little control of this area, as far as it goes now, and that there are two factors that will have a big bearing on whether we can or can't do anything on it and that is if the State relinquishes its control to us and if they don't, then we will have to seek their approval and cooperation. Now, I would have felt that when this thing was started, as the City Manager requested, on the 27th day of March, I am very disappointed in that there wasn't any information released to this Commission or even to the news media because there has been, this is a high critical area, where people are very interested about it, as a result, if we are doing the public relations work, we would have brought out just what we are doing here, and we would have been ahead of the thing and the public would have been better informed, including some of the Commissioners, Now maybe some of them knew about it, I sure didn't. Maybe staff classed it as routine." The City Engineer said they have been looking into it, in fact they have one plan now, already drawn out, that they are going to submit. Commissioner Caldwell asked, "If staff knew about it, it would be available for us, wouldn't it?" Mr. Boyer replied, "Certainly." Commissioner Losik retorted, "Well, why doesn't staff take it upon themselves to keep us informed on some of these things, instead of having the news media and everybody else jumping on us?" Commissioner Caldwell said, "We are not saying it to be jumping on you, I am just saying what is available for you." Commissioner Losik said, "Sure it is all available, but we are not going to have the tail wag the dog, I think it is their responsibility to keep us informed, but us going ahead and asking them for everything." Commissioner Caldwell asked, "When have we made ourselves available for them?" Commissioner Losik said, "Bob, I think a little news release ..." Commissioner Caldwell said, "Now they can't call you because you won't talk. If you are not going to make yourself available to the staff, then I think the staff has the same obligation, they can ..." Commissioner Losik, "Bob, I..." Commissioner Caldwell said, "Let me finish my story, because I know what you are going to say already. If we are here saying something, that we are not exposing ourselves to get the information and I am getting tired of hearing it, because the information is here and if we want it we can come and get it. We can nitpick at things, but there is a time and a place to pick the information up and stop making an issue of it. If a Commissioner is man enough to become a Commissioner, he is man enough to come and talk to their staff, the City Manager or anyone, but if he doesn't make himself available, then he is not doing his duty; regardless of what you say, this is my responsibility to come and find out. If you are going to shy away from it, you don't have any objections." 104 Mayor Weisgerber said he will have to back Bob up. There are hundreds of things that come along through the day, the City Manager and the City staff have no remote way of knowing which one they should give us and which one they shouldn't. There is no way of him being able to guess which of these we might be critical of, if we don't get it. We just don't have, at the present time, good communication. If we are interested in the thing, it is up to us to find out about it. We can't expect him to crystal ball gaze and say this is the thing I want to give him, and this is the think they don't need. Commissioner Losik said, "OK, we have had our scolding here, so to speak, now as far as I am concerned, there has always been a difference of opinion of what the staff should or shouldn't do, and I am sure there always will be, but on the other hand, since this has been such a critical area down through here, we have had news media asking for us to keep the public informed through them. They have offered to come through any time that we want, now as far as that goes, I use the Commission, me as a Commissioner, as secondary, but I think the people are entitled to know this when we have the news media having to take and request this when this is a hot item in that whole area, and the news media has also offered time to allow these things to be brought forth to the public so the public can be well informed, and if we don't provide this, then it is just the same old deal, we are dragging our feet and we are not trying to keep the public informed of what we are trying to do and if we are on our toes, we can jump the gun on these things. Now as far as getting mad about it, I think we all have our share of tempers and everything but this doesn't serve the purpose, The purpose that I think we should quit making excuses and I think we should work in a positive vein, rather than say if you want it come down and get it." Commissioner Caldwell retorted, "Who is making excuses?" Commissioner Losik said, "Let me finish, I afforded you the same privilege. Now, on the same basis, when you make excuses, when you start saying we should do this or do that, to me, that is an excuse. I'm interested in results, period." Commissioner Caldwell said,"well, first, you made the first excuse. Someone should being something to us, if you are going to talk about excuses. I probably could care less if you come or not, but I wouldn't continually say we are not exposed to what is happening in our City. It is up to you to come get it. I don't know what an excuse is, if I don't get what I need, I come down here and ask. Like I went camping last week. I knew I wouldn't be here Friday, so I came down here Friday and picked up my package, because I knew I wouldn't be home Friday and Saturday. 1 was man enough to come down here and ask for it. Now this is to me, what a man is, it is not a question of who did what. I think it it up to you to expose yourself to staff. You are not that far out above everyone just because you are en elected official. You have just taken on another obligation and staff is part of it, and I don't like to hear the think that we are not exposing things to the public." Commissioner Losik said, "Well it is obvious we are not, because the facts speak for themselves as far as I am concerned. My first responsibility is to the people of this community and staff is secondary. Now, I'm here to serve the people, I think we all are, why don't we start doing it?" Mayor Weisgerber said, "Because we've got to get the information to do it. I think this is true with the news media too, if the radio station wants to put an editorial on a subject, they have chosen, then I think it is up to them to check with the City as to what has been done or not been done before they put an editorial on the air. The information is there, it is available. The City Manager certainly has no way of knowing, and the staff has no way of knowing if an editorial may be going to be aired. They can't call down there and say crystal ball says you are going to put an editorial on this, that or the other, so here is the information you need for it. It is up to them to call here and get it. Commissioner Caldwell moved that the meeting adjourn. Commissioner Losik said before we do, he had one thing to say, "it is very, very hard, we all get the publication of the Mayor's magazine, and this comes from information that is being disseminated all over, we have legislation pending, or perhaps it is already approved. We have Mayors in various communities having people on a 24 hour basis, a available on a phone to answer inquiries from the public. Every city is attempting to be more responsive to the public, and the way they are doing that is by being available for the public. Having all this stuff out in the open. Why are we trying to take it slow, and work in less speedy ways than those other people are going is beyond me. Cleveland is doing it, Columbus, Ohio is doing it, Philadelphia is doing it. They are making these things available so the people can call is so they, ... The news media works with them. They are wanting more and more civilian and citizen participation, and this is what we are trying to do. This is what our people are asking us for, and I think this is what we are_ trying to accomplish." Commissioner Losik said, "I put it on the agenda, and by Monday, it should be available." Commissioner Cooper said she thinks a prime example of that is these ladies sitting back here, they said they had called the Police Department, the City Clerk's Office, the City Manager's Office, they have tried everything for a period of time and could get nothing going for them. This is the reason they came to the City Commission. Now why couldn't they get something resolved? They were the ones who called. Mayor Weisgerber said it may be a matter of time. Commissioner Cooper asked the ladies what kind of time they were talking about. Mrs. Baker replied about three weeks. Commissioner Cooper said she is not using that as an example, she said she hears this from people throughout the community all the time. She said she would not say this if it was something that happens occasionally, but she said she doesn't think it is. She said she thinks it is something that happens frequently. People call the proper agency, they call the proper department, they go through what they believe to be the proper channels, and yet they get absolutely no response whatsoever. i Harris, Director of Administration, explained that the City officials do drop the ball occasionally. We have 320 Mayor Weisgerber said, "There is no reason a person can't call into the staff make mistakes, and get the answers they need, and if you are going to give them to somebody, then you've Mr. got to know them, and the only way you are going to get them is to get something from the Department Heads or to the City Manager staff. You can't walk in here at four o'clock on Monday Afternoon and then be informed on what goes on for whatever question you may ask." Commissioner Losik said, "I put it on the agenda, and by Monday, it should be available." Commissioner Cooper said she thinks a prime example of that is these ladies sitting back here, they said they had called the Police Department, the City Clerk's Office, the City Manager's Office, they have tried everything for a period of time and could get nothing going for them. This is the reason they came to the City Commission. Now why couldn't they get something resolved? They were the ones who called. Mayor Weisgerber said it may be a matter of time. Commissioner Cooper asked the ladies what kind of time they were talking about. Mrs. Baker replied about three weeks. Commissioner Cooper said she is not using that as an example, she said she hears this from people throughout the community all the time. She said she would not say this if it was something that happens occasionally, but she said she doesn't think it is. She said she thinks it is something that happens frequently. People call the proper agency, they call the proper department, they go through what they believe to be the proper channels, and yet they get absolutely no response whatsoever. PUBLIC AGENDA None The Motion to adjourn the Regular Meeting was seconded by Commissioner Losik. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. D. L. Harrison, City Clerk 1 Mr. Harris, Director of Administration, explained that the City officials do drop the ball occasionally. We have 320 human employees, not machines. We don't like to make mistakes, and we are not interested in having a reputation that we are unresponsive. Mr. Harris said that citizens who want information should talk first to the Department Heads or to the City Manager before appealing to the City Commission. PUBLIC AGENDA None The Motion to adjourn the Regular Meeting was seconded by Commissioner Losik. Ayes: (4). Nays: (0). Motion carried. D. L. Harrison, City Clerk 1