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07-15-1974 Minutes1 1 194 City of Salina, Kansas Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners July 15, 1974 The Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners met in the Commissioners' Room, City -County Building, on Monday, July 15, 1974, at four o'clock P.M. The Mayor asked everyone to stand for the pledge of allegiance to the Flag and a moment of silent prayer. There were present: Mayor W. M. Usher, Chairman presiding Commissioner Robert C. Caldwell Commissioner Norma G. Cooper Commissioner Mike Losik, Jr. Commissioner Jack Weisgerber comprising a quorum of the Board, also: L. 0. Bengtson, City Attorney Norris D. Olson, City Manager D. L. Harrison, City Clerk Absent: None printed. The Minutes of the Regular Meeting of July 8, 1974 were approved as STAFF AGENDA AN ORDINANCE was introduced for second reading entitled: "AN ORDINANCE providing for the amendment of Zoning Ordinance Number 6613 and the Zoning District Map therein and thereby adopted and providing for the rezoning of certain property within the City and prescribing the proper uses thereof." (Rezoning of Lots 1, 2, 3, 4, White Truck Addition from District "A" (Second Dwelling House District) to District "D" (Local Business District) requested by R. J. Meyer, President of Salina White Trucks, Inc., in Petition Number 3404) A motion was made by Commissioner Losik, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to adopt the ordinance as read and the following vote was had: Ayes: Caldwell, Cooper, Losik, Weisgerber, Usher (5). Nays: (0). Mayor approved the ordinance and it is numbered 8357. The ordinance was introduced for first reading April 8, 1974. AN ORDINANCE was introduced for second reading entitled: "AN ORDINANCE relating to non-discrimination in employment by any head of a department, officia agent, or employee of the City of Salina, establishing procedure by which the intent of the ordinance shall be implemented." AN ORDINANCE was introduced for second reading entitled: "AN ORDINANCE providing that the rates of fare for taxi cabs must be kept on file with the City Clerk and posted in all cabs; amending Section 34-68 of the Salina Code and repealing the existing section." A motion was made by Commissioner Cooper, seconded by Commissioner Losik to adopt the ordinance as read and the following vote was had: Ayes: Caldwell, Cooper, Losik, Weisgerber, Usher (5). Nays: (0). Carried. The Mayor approved the ordinance and it is numbered 8359. The ordinanc was introduced for first reading July 8, 1974. The City Manager said he had visited with Mr. Burnett during the last week, and they are requesting the ordinance be amended to read three periodical news agencies that A motion have general circulation in was made by Commissioner Caldwell, the city. seconded by Commissioner Cooper to adopt the ordinance as amended, and the following vote was had: Ayes: Caldwell, Cooper, Losik, Weisgerber, Usher (5). Nays: (0). Carried. The Mayor approved the ordinance and it is numbered 8358. The ordinance was introduced for first reading July 8, 1974. AN ORDINANCE was introduced for second reading entitled: "AN ORDINANCE providing that the rates of fare for taxi cabs must be kept on file with the City Clerk and posted in all cabs; amending Section 34-68 of the Salina Code and repealing the existing section." A motion was made by Commissioner Cooper, seconded by Commissioner Losik to adopt the ordinance as read and the following vote was had: Ayes: Caldwell, Cooper, Losik, Weisgerber, Usher (5). Nays: (0). Carried. The Mayor approved the ordinance and it is numbered 8359. The ordinanc was introduced for first reading July 8, 1974. 195 THE CITY ENGINEER filed plans and specifications for Engineering Projec 74-571 for improvements in Key Acres Addition Number 2 and Lot 12 Upper Mill Heights Addition # 2. A motion was made by Commissioner Caldwell, seconded by Commissioner Losik to accept the plans and specifications as filed by the City Engineer, and instruct the City Clerk to advertise for bids to be received July 29, 1974. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. A MOTION was made by Commissioner Losik, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to set the date of July 29, 1974 as the date to receive bids for a motor grader for the Street Department, and instruct the City Clerk to advertise for bids. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. A MOTION was made by Commissioner Losik, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to set the date of August 5, 1974 as the date for the Budget Hearing for the 1975 City Budget, and authorize the City Clerk to publish the notice of hearing. Mayor Usher commented that this is the last time the City Commission can increase the budget, and a short discussion among the Commissioners followed about increasing the mill levy .35 to generate an additional $25,000 and reduce the $25,000 that would be taken from Revenue Sharing Funds. Commissioner Losik commented that he is opposed to any increase in taxes. Mayor Usher called for a vote on the motion to set August 5, 1974 for the Budget Hearing. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. COMMISSION AGENDA "DISCUSSION OF 'EAST CRAWFORD'." (Sponsored by Commissioner Weisgerber Commissioner Weisgerber said, "What we had hoped to do here, is to begi to move toward getting something done with East Crawford from the bridge to the city limits. In this process the thing we should do today would be to pass a resolution directing the City Engineer to prepare a feasibility report. He would like a couple of weeks to do this, which would be the 29th day of July, when he would like to come back with a feasibility report, so far as what suggestions and showing what the tax liability would be. At that time then, we could set a hearing, and after a hearing date then the proper motions to order the paving in. What we were talking about, he may come up with some possible options on this, is paving a two lane paving 32 feet in width giving some consideration to the possibility of bicycle paths on either side of the paving. It would not be curbe or guttered. It would be the center two lanes of what might someday be a four lane road. Now this is really part of Crawford where the four lanes need to be. It is possible that in spite of the considerable building that is being done East of Marymount Road, West of the Old Municipal Airport and also across on the north side of Crawford, if Marymount Road would be completed over to Magnolia Road, it would give us then, Iron Avenue and Crawford, plus Magnolia as main East-West roads; so a lot of the traffic moving up in that area might come on across to Magnolia if they were going to things at the high school or to the South Industrie Area, Schilling, The Mall, all those areas. So looking into the future it is perhaps quite likely that Crawford will be a four lane road, but it is also a possibility that it might not need to be. What we particularly need right now is to replace the surface that is there. It is difficult to call it a hard surface area, considering the condition it is in and get a serviceable road. I would suggest that the City -at -large pick up the paving that would run from the bridge up through the flood plain area since the owners of that property are unable to develop it for either residence or commercial. The City -at -large would also pick up any extra grading, extra concrete or extra steel that might be involved in making this a heavier duty road; so the residences in the area would pay only for a standard 32 foot residential street. The details of what exactly would be done on this, of course, would be up to the City Engineer to bring in in his feasibility report. I move that we pass the Resolution and direct the City Engineer to prepare a feasibility report for presentation to us for our consideration on the 29th day of July." 196 Commissioner Losik said, "Jack, what you are saying I'm in full agreeme t on. I would like to ask, in addition to that with your permission, that in the event of all this study, that we know whether this thing would be protested out or not, could we designate this as a thoroughfare and perhaps even fund the whole thing? Now it is just something to look at in the event that it is petitioned out. Now, I know there is a lot of unfairness to it in a lot of ways, but sooner or later I feel that for the City to get the improvements we need to carry this traffic, we are going to eventually have to designate North-South, East-West thoroughfares that will be handled by the City -at -large." Commissioner Weisgerber explained, "The present indication is, there is change in ownership, change in the city limits, a number of changes have taken place out there, since the last time we tried to accomplish this, and it would appear that success would be quite likely because of the changes that have taken place, but I believe that any decision on this would pretty well have to go until we would have a public hearing and even then after this, we had the motion on first and second reading, and then there is still a protest period, so it is going to be some time down the road before we would know that for sure. I would hope that some of the people who live out there, who bought property there in this last period of time, or who have owned there before would consider this, and we certainly hope that they wouldn't have a protest petition or a particularly strong one against it; but of course that is their privilege." Commissioner Cooper commented, "I would like to say something because I am not in disagreement with what Jack is saying, the only area that is subject to a little bit of conflict and question is the fact that this same proposal has been made before, and I direct your attention to the August 27th minutes of 1973 -same subject. "Review of ways and means to improve East Crawford", and it was sponsored by me, and I proposed that the improvements be made one more time in the usual manner charging the regular residential rates and we had a discussion and a motion was made by Commissioner Cooper, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to adopt the Resolution directing the City Engineer to prepare a feasibility report regarding the East Crawford Street improvements. Nothing happened. It didn't go any place. I checked on it one time and I think Dean told me at that time that it was up to the City Commission; so what I am saying is what you are suggesting is certainly something that needs doing, how do we go about seeing that it gets done, because it was a year ago that the same proposal was made." Commissioner Losik asked, "Did you set a deadline for a report on it, Jack?" Commissioner Weisgerber replied, "Two weeks, the 29th of July. The thing that has happened since then has been the change of our city limits. This is where the big change is going to come about, we extended our city limits out and it makes quite a difference in the property owners." Commissioner Cooper said, "The benefit district for the improvements to Crawford would be the same, would they not?" Mr. Boyer said, "They would be extended for this project. This include all those apartments that are under construction now, and it is ready for final platting on the north side of Crawford. Both sides there will be in the improvement district." Commissioner Losik asked if that period of time was long enough for the City Engineer to prepare the report. Mr. Boyer replied that it is. Commissioner Losik seconded the motion to adopt a Resolution directing the City Engineer to prepare a feasibility report relative to the advisability of the installation of certain street improvements to East Crawford Street within the City of Salina, Kansas, and the following vote was had: Ayes: Caldwell, Cooper, Losik, Weisgerber, Usher (5). Nays: (0). Carried. The Mayor approved the Resolution and it is numbered 3192. 137 "DISCUSSION OF THE NORTH SALINA REHABILITATION". (Sponsored by Commissioner Caldwell) Commissioner Caldwell said, "Last month we had a concerned group in the north end of town, named the North Salina Development Group. My reason for placing this on the agenda for rehabilitation as far as North Salina is concerned is to try to show the people concerned in this area that the City Commission has them in mind as far as the product is concerned, or they would not have filed the Community Renewal Project in 1972, which is just practically two years ago. As you know, this wasn't filed, but there was a study made and we have all this on hand in case something happens. I didn't want to place it on here to discourage the efforts of the recently formed group of the steering committee they have working, but just to show they do have the backing of the City Commission on any project they undertake. If it happens to be a funded project through the government it will be a concern of the City. If it is an individual project it will be with the concerned citizens. It seems as though, I gather there was doubt at the meetings that I attended that the City Commission was trying to forget the north end of town. Probably that could have been handled that way, I don't know, but I don't think the City Commission has ever turned down any efforts in trying to help the north end of Salina. I think it was in 1972 that we received a statement from the Citizens' Advisory Committee to inform the City Commission not the City Commission as such, but to inform the City Manager to obtain a proposal for the Community Renewal Project grant in Neighborhood 4. We received information from the Kansas City HUD center that we were to hold this off until we had a meeting with them, and at that time it was dropped because they said there were not any funds available. Now I attended the meetings and I have heard and I was informed the other night that this was never brought up within the committee that there were funds available. I found this out last Thursday night, but this was never mentioned; but I have heard this through other people and of course you can hear a lot of things about in form that night, but my concern here today is to try to relate to this committee that the same information they are seeking from outside is right here in Salina. The same monies that are available over the country are available in Salina. Any proposal or any grants or monies that are available, Salina is aware of them. Now we take individual cities, we might take Wichita, which we had a fellow here by the name of Berry, I believe it was, I don't recall the exact name. Wichita is in a different situation. They have a long term program. They have a population that affords a program that can still be funded; however, they won't be funded after this year of course; but their program is much different from ours because of population. Their model cities program, which we heard when we were down in Fort Worth 3 years ago and all the funds would probably be dropped except the ones that had model cities programs. Since Kansas City, Wichita and other large urban areas had model cities programs they were funded and our program was turned down; however we continued to file it, hopefully so, because they were moving the area from Fort Worth to Kansas City. Again my purpose here is not to discourage any efforts that this steering committee is proposing in the north end of Salina but to get the assurance of the Salina City Commission in anything that they propose within the bounds of funding, and I am sure the City Commission will go along with it. I would be hopeful that the efforts of this steering committee would cooperate their efforts with the Citizens' Advisory Committee. It seems as though they don't, there is not representation. The Citizens' Advisory Committee is made up of people of all areas and I think the cooperation with the Citizens' Advisory Committee, along with this steering committee that you are referring to here, I think some efforts can be reached. Under the new Better Communities Act, which I would say is rather political - hopefully this will be something Salina will be able to carry on. I am sure they will if it comes this way. The Better Communities Act, as I understand it, has been passed by one session of the Congress and when it will go into effect I don't know, but you can rest assured the Salina City Commission, the Salina Staff, will know something about it when it happens. If any grants can be made for any part of town, North, South, East or West, I am sure the City will do something about it. The word came up the other day at a meeting that - why weren't things funded in the north end of town. I can only refer back to the Community Renewal Program of 1972 198 Commissioner Losik said, "Bob, I agree with you 100%. 1 think we were both down there trying to get the same thing going to create more encouragement, more participation and I think we, on several occasions, mentioned that we had shown the efforts we made and the support from us was available to them when the projects came forward, and I am sure that I, as another Commissioner, would support anything that comes up here, the same as you proposed, Bob." Commissioner Caldwell said, "I had one more thing to say about that. I think the same people who were living in that area in 1972 are living there now. When we were really trying to push this Community Renewal Program there, we didn't have all this response. Had we had it then, it might have been a different story, but we didn't get that response when we had a chance at it, and I can see now why they are bringing it up, but I can't see why they didn't come forth at that particular time, because that was when we needed help. And as I said, the same people are in that area now are still there, maybe a few have been added " Mayor Usher asked if there are any other comments. Commissioner Cooper said, "Well, I have one, just for a matter of clarification. When you are talking about the Community Renewal Plan - well that goes back farther than two years ago." Commissioner Caldwell said, "Well, 1972 was the time that it was passed from the Citizens' Advisory Committee to us. It goes back farther than that, but that is when we took action on it." Commissioner Cooper asked, "What do you mean took action on it? The Community Renewal Plan was adopted initially how long ago?" Mr. Harris said, "1972 was when it was finally adopted. The data was collected in 1968 and 1969." Commissioner Caldwell said, "I am referring to Neighborhood Project 4 which is the north end of Salina." Commissioner Cooper asked, "Are you talking about that St. John's program?" Commissioner Caldwell replied, "Right." Commissioner Cooper said, 1101h, okay. But it was kind of a split proposal they did not fund the St. John's project and the people petitioned out the park proposal, right?" Commissioner Caldwell said, "Well, the Salina City Commission finally did away with the park proposal, but continue with the rest of the project." that they attempted to do that and the program fell through because the funds were locked up. Again I am in no way trying to discourage the efforts, I am trying to encourage them; but I do want to say that anything that can happen in the north end of Salina will probably come through the Salina City Commission unless it is an individual effort on the steering committee's part. I might say this and I think it was brought up in two or three of the meetings about the Minimum Housing Code, I think that is where we met with our biggest problem in that area, as to what they were going to do with the Minimum Housing Code. The City Commission went as far as to make amends to the code so it could be changed, but regardless of what happens we are going to have to have a Minimum Housing Code before any project can be put on, as far as I know. I think 1 should have asked this meeting to be held at a night meeting when there could have been more of the people here. I think there is about 10 or 12 of the people here. It was probably untimely on my part, I think the next time we do call a meeting of this nature it will be at night. I know the steering committee does not have all thei things together, they would like to work on, and this, in no way tries to stop that. I think they will continue with their efforts and when they reach their agreement I am sure they will propose it to the City Commission, and again this is not to stop any of their work as far as the north end is concerned. Those are my comments about it and if there is any other things coming from the other City Commissioners I would like to hear it." Commissioner Losik said, "Bob, I agree with you 100%. 1 think we were both down there trying to get the same thing going to create more encouragement, more participation and I think we, on several occasions, mentioned that we had shown the efforts we made and the support from us was available to them when the projects came forward, and I am sure that I, as another Commissioner, would support anything that comes up here, the same as you proposed, Bob." Commissioner Caldwell said, "I had one more thing to say about that. I think the same people who were living in that area in 1972 are living there now. When we were really trying to push this Community Renewal Program there, we didn't have all this response. Had we had it then, it might have been a different story, but we didn't get that response when we had a chance at it, and I can see now why they are bringing it up, but I can't see why they didn't come forth at that particular time, because that was when we needed help. And as I said, the same people are in that area now are still there, maybe a few have been added " Mayor Usher asked if there are any other comments. Commissioner Cooper said, "Well, I have one, just for a matter of clarification. When you are talking about the Community Renewal Plan - well that goes back farther than two years ago." Commissioner Caldwell said, "Well, 1972 was the time that it was passed from the Citizens' Advisory Committee to us. It goes back farther than that, but that is when we took action on it." Commissioner Cooper asked, "What do you mean took action on it? The Community Renewal Plan was adopted initially how long ago?" Mr. Harris said, "1972 was when it was finally adopted. The data was collected in 1968 and 1969." Commissioner Caldwell said, "I am referring to Neighborhood Project 4 which is the north end of Salina." Commissioner Cooper asked, "Are you talking about that St. John's program?" Commissioner Caldwell replied, "Right." Commissioner Cooper said, 1101h, okay. But it was kind of a split proposal they did not fund the St. John's project and the people petitioned out the park proposal, right?" Commissioner Caldwell said, "Well, the Salina City Commission finally did away with the park proposal, but continue with the rest of the project." 199 Commissioner Cooper asked, "What do you mean do away with it, the people didn't want it, that was a petition they presented to us, a majority of the people in that area did not want the park. The St. John's expansion and the renewal in that area would not be funded there were not federal funds available for that particular part of the program." Commissioner Caldwell said, "Right. The minutes on November 20, 1972, the City Commission denied the four block area park proposal, we did that." Commissioner Cooper said, "We did it based on the fact that we had been presented with a petition that a majority of the people did not want the park." Commissioner Caldwell said, "But what I am saying, the Minutes show that the City Commission denied the four block area for the park is what I am saying." Commissioner Losik said, "Bob, I would like to repeat again that I wish the enthusiasm and the interest continues down there, and again, Bob has committe himself, I have too, and I am sure the other three commissioners would do likewis I think we are all concerned about there, and we are willing to do what we can to help. I can't speak for all, I can only speak for myself. Bob and I have alread made our desires know." Commissioner Caldwell said, "Well I have been to all the meetings, I don't say I really made any definite commitment other than I went down to listen." Commissioner Losik said, "Well today, Bob, when you stated that we would support it, this is what I am saying is that I follow that philosophy right down the line too." Mayor Usher asked if there are any comments from the floor. Mr. James Briscoe said, "Two Commissioners, we appreciate your affirmation to whatever extent it is what we are doing down there. I don't know how to dismiss the pessimism or skepticism that exists there, maybe you will have to dismiss this yourself by continuing to show support for such as this and because of the fact that this is a grass roots community approach to dealing with their problems, I hope you will continue to back these kinds of things, because this is the kind of work we want. We want people to be involved in their own problem, to bring solutions for their own problems by their own research and by their own works and efforts, so we hope to present something to this commission eventually, but right now we are just trying to really get engrossed and see the problem as it is, research and to do as much work and trying to do our own homework so we can develop our concern to the extent that we can produce somethin that is valuable that can be used to improve that community out there. Maybe in 1972 you didn't have the acme kind of things. Time changes, people change, attitudes, conditions and deterioration continues; so whatever has happened out there is good and I think the timing is right. I think we are right on time and I think we are going to be right there when whatever happens - legislative happens - we are going to be here to give Salina something that they can use to get the kind of programs that we want out there. We have got a lot of things out there and we think we deserve and that we need and that can improve our community and we are going to be trying to do it. It means we are going to do it on our own. Presently we are trying to develop a community program that will be of interest that we are going to do ourselves. We are going to do it and we are going to fund it. We are going to do whatever it takes and we hope this project, this community project, this project will be something to enduce more enthusiasm in what we are doing out there. Then we are going to be looking at some private development too. Certainly there are some private developers that might have some interest in developing some things out there and eventually we are going to be looking at public development, so if that is an affirmation of your concern for it Mr. Caldwell, I appreciate it. You, Mr. Losik, too. We are going to do something, we are going to need some help from this City Commission and we are going to be here to push it and see that you do it for us." Mr. Henry Williams commented, "I would like to make a comment on how it refers to the Community Renewal Project of 1972. 1 do live in that area and I was in that area in 1972, but I do think the people in that area were not enlightened as to what we could expect from the Community Renewal Program. I myself was personally concerned with the St. John's part of it, not quite as much as I was concerned with the park, because my home was in that area St. John's would have acquired and I was very much concerned. I attended one informative meeting as what was going to take place and I don't think there was any informatio conveyed other than newspapers and radio." Commissioner Caldwell said, "On May 24, 1972 they had a meeting at St. John's Military School and also August 16, 1972, they had a meeting at the Salvation Army Community Center to discuss these projects. I know you were at one of them." Mayor Usher said, "I think probably in the past 2 years a couple of significant things have happened. First of all we found through Mr. Briscoe's help that we have got concerned citizens out there and as far as this Commission is concerned, there were two other Commissioners who attended your meeting; so I think this is indicative. You do have interested people sitting here on this bench, the second significant thing of course has been the reduction and elimination of any funds for rehabilitation, but now with the Better Communities Act, community development once it has gone through Congress and everybody seems to predict it will go through, it is just a question of is it going to have more of the Senate's thinking in it or more of the House of Representatives' in conference committee and it should be out within the next two to three weeks we will know, we will have a better idea of what we are going to have, and the effective date is January 1, 1975, so hopefully soon after the first of the year we can start getting you some positive answers and give you some insight of what you can expect." Commissioner Caldwell said, "I would like to say one other thing. We still have some people in the area who are definitely against the project. You are going to have to do a lot of selling to them, but we felt - 1 could name some names here from some of the minutes from the meeting which isn't necessary that were definitely against whatever happened out there. It was a rehabilitatio program as well as it was a renewal program and a lot of them had been living there for years like any other and hated to leave and as I look through these minutes they were denied practically a number of things, that we tried to do out there in that area." Mr. Olson said, "I was only going to comment on what the gentleman said here concerning the meetings that were held in 1972. At the time those meetings were held there was no money available for new urban renewal or for rehab project Whether this was clearly pointed out at the meetings I don't know, but right afte that the City Commission did instruct me to negotiate with a local planning consultant to develop a proposed contract for services. They submitted to the City their standard proposal for preparing this program application, the planning the scope, the services, and what they would do and all that. Well that agreemen was never accepted, but prior to the commission taking action one way or the other to accept or not to accept the agreement we had a representative from HUD come to Salina and meet I believe it was with the City Commission and I believe with the Urban Renewal Agency clearly indicating that the only funds that were available at that time even, were for ongoing projects and there was no funding for new urban renewal NDP or any other type of categorical project. The second thing I would like to comment and that is the Better Communities Act is not law, there is a version that has passed in the House of Representatives. I understand at the present time they are, that these two bills are in conference committee. Now whether they will ever be passed or not, I don't know, they were supposed to be passed by June 30; we know June 30 has gone by, now their target date is the end of December so it can be some administrative definitions and implementation as a step toward implementing the new act by January 1, whether this will come to pass or not or there has to be another 6 month extension of the programs and projects as we now know them today, that is another bridge. This answer must come from the legislature in Washington." 201 Mr. Williams asked, "At the time you referred to the gentleman who was here from HUD that you referred to, was that money available for Urban Renewal work?" time." Mr. Olson replied, "No, it was impounded by the President at that Mr. Williams said, "At that time I was very active in BAACOS at that time we were informed that the gentleman had related that HUD felt Salina should improvise on what they already had and see if Urban Renewal money for which they was inclined to the eastern edge of our city. The eastern area that had money allotted to clear that area. There has nothing been done with that area and from what information we could gather they weren't going to invest any money until there was something concrete shown in this eastern area. Now this is the information we received. Now, I can't say any more, I wasn't at your meetings." Mr. Olson said, "I think at that first meeting neither Tom Darnell who was the City Planner at that time, nor myself were even aware that this first meeting was being called, and we went out just as interested spectators. I think there was some statements, inferences and comments made to that effect and we punched each other because we were under the impression there was no money available. Mr. Darnell made a call to Kansas City the very next day - there was no money available and a subsequent trip inviting, I don't recall who it was not, Bernstein or somebody from the HUD office to come out and confirm this precise thing and we talked specifically about the subject, about the area East of St. John's which you are interested in. He said there is no way of funding a new project. All they would fund at that time were ongoing projects like Central downtown or whatever you call it, and that is the only reason to get this 6 month interim funding from July 1 through December 31 of this year, is an ongoing project. True in Wichita. True in Salina. True all over. There was no formal action taken on the discussion. PUBLIC AGENDA PETITION NUMBER 3437 was filed by Gary Chrisbens, Manager of the 81 Drive-in Theatre, requesting city water service to the 81 Drive-in theatre, 2640 South Ninth Street. A motion was made by Commissioner Weisgerber, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to refer the petition to the City Engineer and Water Department for a report and recommendation. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. PETITION NUMBER 3438 was filed by Eldon E. Tippe, for the replacement of the existing brick sidewalk with a concrete sidewalk at 120 West Kirwin. A motion was made by Commissioner Weisgerber, seconded by Commissioner Cooper to refer the petition to the City Engineer for a report. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. PETITION NUMBER 3439 was filed by M. R. Windham, Robert Sexton, John Welborn, C. E. Hill and Russell J. Fraser, d/b/a Diamond Investment Company for the rezoning of a tract of land in the Southeast Quarter of Section 35-13-3 from District "A" (Second Dwelling House District) to District "F" (Light Industrial District). A motion was made by Commissioner Caldwell, seconded by Commissioner Losik to refer the petition to the City Planning Commission. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. A REQUEST was Annandale, Virginia, to received from keep 3 horses Col George E. Wheeler, 8600 Braeburn Drive, at 1815 Glenn. The request has been approved by the Health Department. A motion was made by Commissioner Cooper, seconded by Commissioner Losik to approve the request and grant permission for three horses to be kept at 1815 Glenn. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. A REQUEST was received from George C. Etherington to appear before the City Commission in reference to the Auto Plaza Petition which he filed with the County Planning Commission. Mr. Etherington said, "Mr. Mayor, members of the Commission, Ladies and Gentlemen, our forebearers and forefathers fought for the right to petition and some of them died. I am fighting and I hope that is as far as it goes, but we are at the crossroads here, where as you know in my letter I am trying to petitio the County for the right to be heard and they have imposed certain restrictions which I did get a letter from Mr. Olson and presented it to them. They then felt that the City Commission should concur in this and it is my understanding that the reason they are asking for this, this is strictly supposition, but if it should pass in the County, if it should pass in the County Planning and did get to the County Commission the County Commissioners couldn't come up and say, well we never did get approval from the City Commissioners to, and present this so this is basically what I am asking for ladies and gentlemen, if you will concur in Mr. Olson's letter the right for me to petition to the County Planning." Mayor Usher said, "We are sorry you are having so much trouble with the County and after all it is their problem. They were the ones that wanted the three mile limit, and my own personal opinion is - of course first of all the policy is there and all Mr. Olson is doing in his letter is administering the policy so I can't see anything the matter with his letter at all." Mr. Etherington said, "I agree with you, Mr. Mayor, I don't see anything wrong with his letter either, all I am trying to do is abide by the County Planning Board's request, and I am sure you read in the minutes that they did ask for this concurrance by the City Commission and this, of course, is why I am here is asking only that they concur with what the City Manager said." Commissioner Losik said, "There are some other people probably want to talk to this, speak to this." Mr. Jim Torrey said, "I am in the City and we have a problem. I thought that - one of the reasons we had across the street on East Ohio condition to the City standpoint of planning, it was zoned for residential which is beyond the question we are talking about. Secondly I thought we had a water problem - generalization of using the statement water - that there was a water problem all along the east side of Ohio from approximately Crawford on South clear on to Bonnie Ridge area and in going through this, getting some information, I couldn't get very much from anyone. There didn't seem to be much of a water problem out there directly across Ohio, particularly from Crawford down to Belmont Area. So I would like to see - to go back to determine if there is really true water probl which I think does exist and since the city ..." Mayor Usher said, "Mr. Torrey, what we are discussing here is a letter that Mr. Olson wrote for Mr. Etherington, he is asking us do we concur with what he says in this letter or not, now as far as any water problems out there, that doesn't fit in with what we are talking about." Commissioner Losik said, "I disagree with you, Bill. It definitely does, because one of the last statements in the letter of May 13, 1974 states, ,to our knowledge neither the Corps of Engineers nor the City of Salina has any prohibitions for the development of this area so long as such development does not adversely effect the interior drainage of the City.' Now that is water problem." Mr. Torrey said, "Now, what I would like to see done, because I still think it is a problem, whether you agree with me or not; but sir, I would like to see the Corps of Engineers did build a dike, they are adjusted with their past Corps of Engineers, the City did build a dike, the Corps of Engineers could send us or send to the City a letter stating that there is no water problem, or that there is a water problem in the whole general area, but I believe that the south area is concerned with the water coming north into that area. I'll bet half, I don't know what the name of that development is out there, the Parkwood area, is that right? There have been buildings built out there, and I'll bet you the next water fall that we really get, another good water - rain of water, I'll bet we could go out and find water in the basements, because it existed on the west side of the street. I'll bet it will exist on the east side, but there is a water problem, and I think it definitely effects the people livinc on the east side in the developments, the future development of that area." 203 Mayor Usher, "Any other comments?" Mayor Usher said, "I don't see anything the matter with this, so long as such development does not adversely effect the interior drainage of the City." Commissioner Losik said, "Who is making that decision and what is the basis for that decision?" Mr. Olson said, "Maybe I could address a comment to this statement. I probably had no legal right to include that in the letter, the intent of putting that phraseology in a letter was to encourage or to assure or to try to at least have the developer visit with the City to see that anything he did did not back up water onto Ohio or back onto another area so that it did not adversely effect the interior drainage of the City. I don't think there is a man or individual that I know of or a group of individuals can tell you what the effects of water is going to be even if you tell him where it is going to fall, the quantity it is going to fall, the time of day it is going to fall, the conditions of the soil at the time it is going to fall, or any of these other multitude of items that effect water drainage, but this petitioner can go in and build a retaining wall and dam water up on his neighbor, he can suffer water onto his neighbor. We have situations of this in the City of Salina in residential areas. I don't think they would, I don't think any developer would. I think all developers want to be good neighbors, if and when they want to get a building permit to commence construction, so our point is merely to sit down and visit, we cannot give, we cannot provide definite criteria, nor do we have a legal right to request it but we hoped that it did not adversely effect the interior drainage that we hoped, that if and when the time ever came for the development plan that they would sit down with the City and we would go over that part of it, that is all." Mr. Jim Sullivan .said, "Perhaps a little background might enlighten what our problem is on this thing, as everyone known when the City apparently did not have the jurisdiction beyond the three mile limit, then we had to go to the County. We appeared before the County Planning Commission and their attitude was that they would not hear our petition until they had been assured that we could tie into the city sewer and water and KP & L and so on like that, even though the land we are talking about is within the County and of course it joins up with the city limits, so we were told by the County Planning Commission to go to the City people, to Mr. Olson, and get a letter from him saying that we could tie in, of course there wasn't any problem, because as I understand it, the law was very clear on that, that we could tie in and get the City services, so we got the letter from the City Manager which all it is is just stating what the law is then we went back with them with the letter and what they told us then was - well yes you have the letter like we asked, now we want you to get something from the City Commission from either the entire body or from the Mayor saying that what the City Manager has said is okay with you people. In effect that is what we are doing is coming to you and saying the letter that we asked for and Mr. Olson gave us - that that letter stands up as far as you, the Mayor and/or the City Commission is concerned. Now the problem as far as drainage and water, Mr. Losik Mr. Etherington said, "Mr. Losik may I try to answer a question too? I think the County Planning Board will then ascertain when this get to them, I think they will ascertain this water problem since they are asking for everything outside the 200 feet. They are asking to run the County and I think that this comes under their premise and I feel once we get it to them that this will all be brought out and answered." Commissioner Losik said, "Mr. Etherington, you are asking me to concur in this letter, the paragraph I do not concur in without some additional information to present to the County. Now what the County does in the County is up to them but as far as what the City does here in submitting the information to the County is our decision, and I as one need to have a little bit more information regarding this statement that was made by the City Manager as to what is the basis, how are we going to determine whether it will adversely effect the interior drainage of the City. Who has made a study of it? Has anybody even indicated this or is this just a stock answer going out? So what you are asking me to do is concur in a letter that I can't concur in in so far as I don't have information from anybody to give me this." Mayor Usher said, "I don't see anything the matter with this, so long as such development does not adversely effect the interior drainage of the City." Commissioner Losik said, "Who is making that decision and what is the basis for that decision?" Mr. Olson said, "Maybe I could address a comment to this statement. I probably had no legal right to include that in the letter, the intent of putting that phraseology in a letter was to encourage or to assure or to try to at least have the developer visit with the City to see that anything he did did not back up water onto Ohio or back onto another area so that it did not adversely effect the interior drainage of the City. I don't think there is a man or individual that I know of or a group of individuals can tell you what the effects of water is going to be even if you tell him where it is going to fall, the quantity it is going to fall, the time of day it is going to fall, the conditions of the soil at the time it is going to fall, or any of these other multitude of items that effect water drainage, but this petitioner can go in and build a retaining wall and dam water up on his neighbor, he can suffer water onto his neighbor. We have situations of this in the City of Salina in residential areas. I don't think they would, I don't think any developer would. I think all developers want to be good neighbors, if and when they want to get a building permit to commence construction, so our point is merely to sit down and visit, we cannot give, we cannot provide definite criteria, nor do we have a legal right to request it but we hoped that it did not adversely effect the interior drainage that we hoped, that if and when the time ever came for the development plan that they would sit down with the City and we would go over that part of it, that is all." Mr. Jim Sullivan .said, "Perhaps a little background might enlighten what our problem is on this thing, as everyone known when the City apparently did not have the jurisdiction beyond the three mile limit, then we had to go to the County. We appeared before the County Planning Commission and their attitude was that they would not hear our petition until they had been assured that we could tie into the city sewer and water and KP & L and so on like that, even though the land we are talking about is within the County and of course it joins up with the city limits, so we were told by the County Planning Commission to go to the City people, to Mr. Olson, and get a letter from him saying that we could tie in, of course there wasn't any problem, because as I understand it, the law was very clear on that, that we could tie in and get the City services, so we got the letter from the City Manager which all it is is just stating what the law is then we went back with them with the letter and what they told us then was - well yes you have the letter like we asked, now we want you to get something from the City Commission from either the entire body or from the Mayor saying that what the City Manager has said is okay with you people. In effect that is what we are doing is coming to you and saying the letter that we asked for and Mr. Olson gave us - that that letter stands up as far as you, the Mayor and/or the City Commission is concerned. Now the problem as far as drainage and water, Mr. Losik 204 and all those other problems, we will have to face with the County; and we will have to ascertain that what we are doing i� not going to create a problem for somebody else, but I believe today, as I understand it the only thing we are asking for today is for the City Commission or for the Mayor to say that the letter that we have got from the City Manager is the wish of the City Commission. I believe that is all we need today." Commissioner Losik said, "Did not the County Commission inquire definitely as to the water situation there?" Mr. Sullivan said, "We have never met with the County Commission Mr. Losik. We have met with the County Planning Board." Commissioner Losik replied, "Well I mean the Planning Board, the County Planning Board." Mr. Sullivan said, "The only thing they have done, as I understand it, they will not hear our petition until these things are done. Now we did talk about the problem we will perhaps create because of the lay of the land as far as the water drainage and so on, they gave us about five different things they wanted us to do, one of which was to get this letter from the City Manager. The County Planning Commission has not heard our petition, they won't let us go to them until we get this letter from you people, is what I am saying so the problem we have, Mr. Losik, any drainage problem we are going to have to face that with the County, but unless we get a letter from the City we can't even go to the County Planning Commission and say hear our petition, they won't let us in the room, until we get a letter from the Mayor or the Commission saying that what the City Manager wrote is in effect true." Commissioner Losik said, "Well, first of all I think all the City Managr himself made the statement that his paragraph, last paragraph should not have bee in this letter." Mr. Sullivan commented, "I can't argue there." Commissioner Losik said, "So what I am saying is this point here is can concur in everything except that last paragraph but as far as concurring with the whole letter, no, I can't. So if it is just that letter which would be for the streets and for the services, this is a cut and dried thing, this has always been available. Now as far as the rest of it, if that is deleted, I have no quams about the other because that is a cut and dried thing, but I cannot concur in that last paragraph in this letter - I as an individual commissioner." Mayor Usher said, "Well, it is almost an impossibility to answer the third question anyway. It is a ridiculous question." Commissioner Losik said, "Well, it's, it's probably a statement that shouldn't even have been in there because somewhere along the line somebody had asked about water or that statement wouldn't have been in there." Mr. Torrey said, "That was the question, if the area were developed, that general area, petitioned the body of the County, the Planning Body of the County, did not ask what is being developed. (Unintellible) stated that if a development occurred within that area requested for zoning by these people would the water problem be effected and would it create a more serious problem? I think that is all it was, and the City has not answered the County Planning Commission's letter. If a development occurred would there be a water problem? Now I am not saying you can answer it." Mr. Olson commented, "Okay." Mayor Usher said, "That is not even what it says. That is not what the question says." Mr. Torrey said, "Huh?" 205 Mr. Olson said, "Well, I merely ..." Commissioner Losik said, "The first statement you made if not, I'll have her read it back or play it back." Mayor Usher asked, "For what?" Commissioner Losik said, "That is all, because I want to hear it from him again." Mayor Usher asked, "What for?" We've got it in the minutes." Commissioner Losik said, "Alright then in that case, then this paragrap should be deleted, because ..." Mayor Usher said, "Not necessarily, I don't think it should be." Commissioner Losik said, "Well why should it be in there? When he admitted he shouldn't have made it." Mayor Usher said, "He didn't admit that at all." Commissioner Losik instructed, "Read it back and see what you said." Mr. Olson said, "I said possibly it shouldn't have been included." Commissioner Losik said, "Okay. Now why would you say that?" Mayor Usher repeated, "That is not even what the question says." Mr. Olson said, "Have you objected to the residential development over there?" Mr. Torrey said, "No." Mr. Olson said, "Okay, we can't answer that question as it might relate to residential development any more than we can answer the question ..." Mr. Torrey said, "Right, and I am not arguing the ..." Mr. Olson said, "And I am not arguing the merits of the petition." Mr. Torrey said, "But they were saying is if there is a development put in there would the City have any problems? Would it be concern to the City with water?" Mr. Olson said, "And I am saying this, if the soil is 100% saturated you get 100% run off. You get 100% run off from concrete. This is an impossible question to answer. We merely asked that they touch base with the City if and when the time ever comes for development." Mayor Usher said, "It is not an unreasonable request." Mr. Etherington said, "I would like to read to you the question as the County Planning Board dictated it, it says the matter of landfill on the development site in so far as the so called impounding of surface water area may be effected." Mayor Usher said, "It is an unanswerable question. The only thing we are doing here is asking them just like Mr. Olson said, is to touch base in the event this thing goes through." Commissioner Losik said, "Now to touch base again, I want to repeat, Norris would you repeat what you said regarding this last paragraph?" Mr. Olson said, "Well, I merely ..." Commissioner Losik said, "The first statement you made if not, I'll have her read it back or play it back." Mayor Usher asked, "For what?" Commissioner Losik said, "That is all, because I want to hear it from him again." Mayor Usher asked, "What for?" We've got it in the minutes." Commissioner Losik said, "Alright then in that case, then this paragrap should be deleted, because ..." Mayor Usher said, "Not necessarily, I don't think it should be." Commissioner Losik said, "Well why should it be in there? When he admitted he shouldn't have made it." Mayor Usher said, "He didn't admit that at all." Commissioner Losik instructed, "Read it back and see what you said." Mr. Olson said, "I said possibly it shouldn't have been included." Commissioner Losik said, "Okay. Now why would you say that?" 200 Mr. Olson said, "Why would you nit-pick on something like this when I explained it?" picking." Commissioner Losik said, "That is not nit-picking. That is not nit - Mr. Olson said, "I explained it to the detail it is an unanswerable question in that area." Commissioner Losik said, "Then why would you give the impression there with that type of a statement, now the Corps of Engineers was mentioned to add a little bit of support to it and the City of Salina and also the support. Now you yourself stated that you perhaps shouldn't have made the statement, then why did you make it? And that is one of the big problems that exists in that area." Mayor Usher asked, "Like what?" Mr. Etherington said, "That is something the County is going to have to work out Mr. Losik, not the City." Commissioner Losik said, "The water and that is what one of the things is that the Planning Board was wanting to know about." Commissioner Weisgerber said, "That is their problem. Mayor Usher said, "That is the County's problem, Mike, it might be yours." D. L. Harrison, City Clerk Commissioner Weisgerber stated, "I think the truth to the matter is in this that what actually is going on, the County was so terribly anxious to take away from us all this territory where we should have had jurisdiction, and now they have got it they are trying to postpone and trying to dodge their responsibilities is exactly what is going on. They have got the responsibility and they have got to take it. These, after all, are standard questions and standard answers so I think they are simply delaying giving an answer to a question, so I would move that we approve the letter that our City Manager has written to Mr. Etherington and suggest that these are standard answers that they should well know." Commissioner Caldwell seconded the motion. Commissioner Cooper said, "I think probably the - in regard to this question that city services are standard - streets, the water and all these other things are very usual. I think in regards to whether that is an impounding area whether there is a drainage problem out there or not, no one can really know and the City Manager stated this - what the results will be is something is constructed there. You only know what the results are as it sits at the moment, but you don't know what will happen if anything else is put in that location, so it is not a question that the City governing body can answer for the County Planning Board, in any way shape or form and so I would want any reply to the County Planning Board to include that to the best of my knowledge I have no idea what is going to happen to the drainage or to the water flow in that area if they decide to build something there. I don't know, but as far as city services are concerned, in terms of streets and water and this kind of thing, these are grante to anybody simply upon request." Mayor Usher said, "It has been moved and seconded that we concur with the letter of May 13." Commissioner Losik "Who asked, seconded it?" Mayor Usher replied, "Mr. Caldwell!' Ayes: Caldwell, Weisgerber, Usher (3). Nays: Cooper, Losik (2). Motion carried. A MOTION was made by Commissioner Caldwell, seconded by Commissioner Losik that the Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners be adjourned. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. D. L. Harrison, City Clerk