02-11-1974 Minutes70
City of Salina, Kansas
Regular Meeting of the Board
of Commissioners
February 11, 1974
The Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners met in the
Commissioners' Room, City -County Building, on Monday, February 11, 1974, at
four o'clock P.M.
The Mayor asked everyone to stand for the pledge of allegiance to the
Flag and a moment of silent prayer.
There were present;
Mayor Jack Weisgerber, Chairman presiding
Commissioner Robert C. Caldwell
Commissioner Norma G. Cooper
Commissioner Mike Losik, Jr.
Commissioner W. M. Usher
comprising a quorum of the Board, also:
L. 0. Bengtson, City Attorney
Norris D. Olson, City Manager
D. L. Harrison, City Clerk
Absent:
None
The Minutes of the Regular Meeting of February 4, 1974, were approved
as mailed.
THE MAYOR PROCLAIMED the Month of February, 1974 - "BOY SCOUT MONTH".
The proclamation was read by Darcy Anderson, an Eagle Scout.
THE MAYOR PROCLAIMED the Week of February 17 through 23, 1974 -
NATIONAL ENGINEER'S WEEK IN SALINA". The proclamation was read by Jerry May
of the Smoky Valley Chapter of the Kansas Engineering Society.
STAFF AGENDA
AN ORDINANCE was introduced for second reading entitled: "AN ORDINANCE
changing the name of a certain street located within the City of Salina, Kansas."
(changing the name of Kennel Road to Brandau Road).
Commissioner Usher moved to adopt the ordinance as read.
Commissioner Cooper said she could not support the name change because
she feels there are more appropriate ways of acknowledging the contributions of
an individual than by naming something that is public domain in their honor.
Commissioner Losik commented that he hoped we are not setting a
prec®dent.
Commissioner Caldwell seconded the motion and the following vote was
had: Ayes: Caldwell, Losik, Usher, Weisgerber (4). Nays: Cooper (1). Carried.
The Mayor approved the ordinance and it is numbered 8334. The ordinance was
introduced for first reading January 21, 1974.
A LETTER was received from the Metropolitan Planning Commission
recommending the approval of Petition Number 3383 which was filed by Ashton
Brothers, Inc., for the rezoning of Lots 6, 7, 8, Block 4, and Lots 5, 6, 7, 8,
Block 5, Southern Heights Addition from District "A" (Second Dwelling House
District) to District "D" (Local Business District). A motion was made by
Commissioner Usher, seconded by Commissioner Caldwell to accept the recommendatio
of the Metropolitan Planning Commission and introduce the rezoning ordinance for
first reading. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried.
AM
Mr. Meyer, 729 Merrill, was present to protest the rezoning, and
asked for a delay until the next meeting.
Mr. Meyer was informed he has 14 days after the Planning Commission
meeting to file a formal protest. No further action will be taken on the
rezoning until the meeting of February 25, 1974.
Ordinance Passed: Number:
A LETTER was received from the Metropolitan Planning Commission
recommending the approval of Petition Number 3387 which was filed by Presley
Builders, Inc., for the annexation of the area encompassed by the preliminary
plat of Country Club Estates Addition, Blocks 3 through 12, as submitted in a
companion Petition Number 3386. A motion was made by Commissioner Caldwell,
seconded by Commissioner Losik to accept the recommendation of the Metropolitan
Planning Commission and introduce an ordinance for first reading for the
annexation. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried.
Ordinance Passed: Number:
A LETTER was received from the Metropolitan Planning Commission
recommending the approval of Petition Number 3388 which was filed by William J.
Stover for the rezoning of Lots 10 and 11, Block 5, Replat of Faith Addition
from District "A10 (Second Dwelling House District) to District "B" (Two -Family
Dwelling House District). A motion was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by
Commissioner Caldwell to accept the recommendation of the Metropolitan Planning
Commission and introduce the rezoning ordinance for first reading. Ayes: (5).
Nays: (0). Motion carried.
Ordinance Passed: Number:
COMMISSION AGENDA
"DISCUSS ADOPTION OF SENATE BILL 333, TABLED 10 DEC. 1973."
(Sponsored by Commissioner Losik)
Commissioner Losik said, "I sponsored this to bring it back as we had
agreed on 60 days ago, and I think at this point, before I may have any other
comments, chances are the rest will too, I would like to refer this to the
President of the Firefighters Local 782, Jim Todd. I believe he is the one here
to start out on this."
"As far as contacting the other city employees. I believe, or at least
I felt like I had the go ahead, or the union had a go ahead the last time we
talked on December the 10th. Directly after that meeting I had a talk with
Chief Bross, Assistant Chief Nichols and Mr. Harris, and I thought it was a very
informative meeting as far as setting up this chain of command goes. I think we
had a lot of things ironed out there at that point; however, it didn't turn out
that way as it went along.
Mr. Todd said, "My name is Jim Todd. I brought to the past Commission
meetings - some previous meetings we have had on the Senate Bill 333. 1 think
that we all agree it does have merit. It starts out from as far back as May of
1972 and that meeting, the basic reason it has been turned down is the fact of
51% of the city employees haven't shown interest and also the fact that the
litigation of the firefighters have against the City. Okay. Mr. Caldwell, I
think you were the one that brought up litigation because at one time, the last
time I spoke before the City Commission I did in my capacity of a State officer,
you said that you were a defendant and that you couldn't honestly say that you
could be in favor of something as long as we have litigation. Since this time
I have gotten correspondence from our attorney Shaffer, Charles Shaffer from
Kansas City, 'In response to your recent inquiry, there are presently no law suit
filed by the International Association of Fire Fighters against any Commissioner
individually. We have two law suits pending, and he described what they are.
No Commissioner has been a defendant for several months, we dismissed the last
State case in which we had an individual Commissioner named, late in 1973. 1 am
shocked that the Commissioners of the City of Salina have not been informed of
these facts by their high priced attorneys. If you need any further information
on this subject, please let us know. Most sincerely, Charlie Shaffer.' Okay,
The City of Salina is not named, nor is any Commissioner. I think the only
defendant, the only person that is named on there as a defendant is the City
Manager, Norris Olson.
"As far as contacting the other city employees. I believe, or at least
I felt like I had the go ahead, or the union had a go ahead the last time we
talked on December the 10th. Directly after that meeting I had a talk with
Chief Bross, Assistant Chief Nichols and Mr. Harris, and I thought it was a very
informative meeting as far as setting up this chain of command goes. I think we
had a lot of things ironed out there at that point; however, it didn't turn out
that way as it went along.
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"I did get a copy of all city employees names on the 13th of December.
Okay. I started looking up names and addresses and what have you in order to
contact the various people. Alright on the 14th we had a departmental
communications come out in the Fire Department, that in fact more or less said
anything concerning the Salina Fire Department will go through the staff. Okay.
Like I say, I believe that I had the Commissioners go ahead from the December 10t
meeting, so therefore I never did mention this to the staff. On December 20th,
I was approached by a Captain at my Fire Station and he did in fact threaten me
that if the union did not take this through the staff, I personally would be
repremanded for it, or I personally would get in trouble, was his words. I had
five witnesses. They all felt the same way I did, that we better go through the
staff, and I had already promised Mr. Harris that we would. So we did start
going through the staff. This December 20th meeting this Fire Captain said all
I had to do was merely make a telephone call to any one of the Captains and that
I would be allowed into the meeting the first week in January. So I waited to
find out when the exact date was in January. January the 7th I found out there
was to be the staff meeting January the - January 7th I found out the meeting
was to be January the 8th. They said that I was not allowed to go to this
meeting due to the fact that Mr. Harris was to be there and it wasn't really a
staff meeting. Now throughout the various Commission meetings that we have had,
Mr. Harris has said that we could meet with him any time he wants to, but now,
all of a sudden I am running into this - I don't know what type of tactic it is -
I have never run across it before. Again, like I say, when I talked to this
other Captain he stated the fact that the Chief could call a special meeting for
me even though I was denied this January 8th meeting. I said that would be fine.
I was contacted on January 10th again and said maybe I had been misinformed of
the fact that I needed to put this in writing to the staff in order to get this
special meeting. I said fine, I'll work with your staff. January 11th I did
send a letter up the chain of command through the Fire Department staff requestin(
that we have a meeting on the Senate Bill 333, the meet and confer bill. I
delivered it to Captain Dunn, and he said that he would try to set this meeting
up for the 14th, which was on a Monday. And he said in your letter it says that
we - you - we want to meet with the staff. Who is we? I said now that is the
executive board of the Fire Fighters union. And he said consisting of how many?
And I said four. He said we only meet with two people. That is all we will
meet with. Yet their communication said they will meet with any number of people
any committees, anything like this, but yet I have been cut to two now. But I
am still working with your staff. I requested that my vice-president, Don Webb,
go with me to this meeting on the 14th, and Don Webb was on duty so therefore he
was to report to headquarters for the meeting. On Sunday, the 13th, I got a
round about message, it wasn't really via chain of command. My supervisor was
never informed of the fact, my immediate supervisor was never informed of the
fact that we were going to have this staff meeting, special staff meeting. In
the process of their so called chain of command they completely left my fire
lieutenant out of the picture. Now they had me telling him that we were going to
have this meeting and that was fine, I did this because I was working along with
your staff. Okay. Like I say on the 13th, I was told to call Captain Vaupel at
Fire Department Headquarters and he did instruct me of the fact that the meeting
was called off for the 13th and that it would be on the 16th. The reason being
one of the Captains couldn't be there. Now that is permissible. I didn't argue
this point at all. I said fine, I will meet with you the 16th. Okay, on the
16th we did meet with the staff. Again, my immediate supervisor at the Fire
Department, who is Lieutenant Caswell, was not informed, so therefore we have a
breakdown in our communications or your chain of command.
"At this meeting they said it was more or less the local's problem, they
said we could handle it in whichever way we deemed possible, and that - to have
at it. My vice-president did make the comment that we would like to know if,
going through the staff and the department head, if Mr. Olson could put out a
memo to the various departments more or less just informing them of the fact
that we were going to have this meeting on Senate Bill 333. Not pro, not con,
just inform them that this meeting would be held for anybody who was interested.
Period. And that is it. They said they would have to check about it, and they
would let me know January 18th. On January 18th I was supposed to receive a
telephone call from the Fire Chief, which I did not. The reason being that the
Assistant Chief had contacted my vice-president the day before, so I did call the
Chief to -find out what the deal was, and he stated that the fact that the staff,
or Mr. Olson was considered supervisory personnel, he couldn't enter into this,
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along with our likes or dislikes. I asked if I could have this in writing
because Assistant Chief Nichols had in fact told my vice-president that it was
our baby, take the bulls by the horn, that there wasn't enough time to put out a
memo, and when I told the Chief this, the Chief said that is in fact what they
did say, they didn't have enough time to put out a memo. Again, this was on
January 18th. Now if there wasn't enough time to put out a memo on January 18th,
there wasn't enough time to contact all the city employees. So I think we have
pretty well solved the problem there.
"Okay, in the mean time, on the December 10th meeting that we had,
Larry Bruzda did have a written repremand placed in his personnel file. I don't
know how many of you are aware of it. I would like to give you a copy of this.
(Copies were given to the Commissioners, Mr. Harris, Mr. Olson, and Larry Bengtsor
So being threatened by a Fire Captain and with intimidating letters such as this
placed in personnel files, do you really think that I am going to stand here and
talk any more about Senate Bill 333? 1 have no more comment on Senate Bill 333!"
Mayor Weisgerber said, "Now wait a minute, now. Let me ask you some
questions. You have lost me completely in what you are trying to do. When you
were here in December, you had had a meeting or two at the labor temple in which
you asked the employees to go, in which you got no response to speak of from the
other city employees. What we told you in effect and have said all along was I
think that when over half of the city employees evidenced some interest in this
we certainly would consider it. Now what you have been up to trying to have a
lot of staff meetings about it for, I don't quite follow. What are you working
on?"
Mr. Todd said, "I had to go along with the idea".
Mayor Weisgerber asked, "Why?"
Mr. Todd replied, "Why? Because I had a Fire Captain tell me to take
it through the staff or that I would be.."
Mayor Weisgerber interrupted, "Take what through the staff?"
Mr. Todd replied, "Senate Bill. Meeting with the other city employees.
They told me if the Union did not take this through the Fire Department staff
I personally would get in trouble, even though I had your okay. I got stopped
right there. I have seen the best - that is one of the best stall tactics I have
yet seen. From December 10th to January 18th. That is amazing."
Mayor Weisgerber said, "This sort of thing doesn't go through staff.
It goes through your own individual meeting, just like you had at the labor
temple. There was no objection to your having that one."
Mr. Todd said, "We had a lack of communication between the Commission
and the Fire Department staff."
Mr. Harris said, "I probably won't be able to straighten it out,
because I haven't been able to follow the course of events presented by Firefight r
Todd, but at the last meeting, or the close of the last meeting this was on the
agenda, Chief Bross brought fire fighters Todd and Bruzda up here to visit with
me, and my suggestion, as I recall at that time, was that they, just like the
members of all our departments should try to submit their requests or recommendations
to the staff of their respective departments, that personally I thought that they
would accomplish much more if they operated in that way, and this was the vehicle
that has always been open to them as well as to all our employees to have any
matter considered. Now, so far as the item of Senate Bill 333, when the Chief
came to me wanting to know if City Hall, or the City Manager would put out a
memo to all employees about such a meeting being held, I told the Chief that I
thought that it would be inappropriate for the administration to do it. To play
any part in it. Any role in it. I felt that there were plenty of means of
communication available to them, particularly through the public news media to
make all our penple aware that such a meeting was being held. I felt that if we
took any part in it, putting out any type of communication about such a meeting
that someone was going to misinterpret it, would try to take advantage of it,
and say that the city administration had either done something to interefer with
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Mayor Weisgerber said, "I think so far as the Senate Bill, or unionism
is concerned, the staff has no part either in it or out of it. It is something
you leave alone. It is something that is strictly up to them to promote on their
off time and on the city employee's off time. That is the way it is done in
industry and I see no reason why that isn't the way it would be done here. I
think that is what the attempt was made earlier in December which failed, so I
think they are looking for another out.,,
Mr. Harris said, "Mr. Mayor, I would make one further comment. We did
discuss this with the City Manager, other members of the staff, as to whether or
not we should, as a staff, as the administration, hold an informative type of a
meeting; perhaps bring someone out from the League of Municipalities even, in an
effort to try to get the information out to all city employees as to what this
bill is, what it provides for, so that when they did express an opinion or cast
a vote in any way on it, that they would be informed as to what they were voting
for or against; but our discussion was that it would be inappropriate, that
someone would be bound to misinterpret it, that we were making an effort to
undermine it."
Mayor Weisgerber commented, "I have to think,if we boiled it all down,
the truth to the matter is they are not making any headway with the other
employees, but - well anyway - are there any other comments? We have been over
the ground a great many times before, and if there is something new to be added,
that is fine. I hate to re -hash the same old things over and over."
it, or in some way not to get the word out to people, that if someone didn't get
the word, then it was liable to come back on the administration that we had not
done the proper job; so on that basis I told the Chief that I felt we should not
put out such a memo, and I did that without discussing it with the City Manager.
I later, and before the Chief went back to his staff with it, I did visit with
the City Manager and he concurred with my thinking on it. I feel that the local
had every opportunity to make known a meeting if they wanted to set one up. I
think the Commission had commented here that day, that they could hold it right
here. This is a public building. I don't feel that it would have made any
difference in the 'participation of employees, the attendance or anything else
if the administration had put out such a notice. I don't feel that by our not
doing it that we obstructed it in any way. I think there was plenty of opportuni
plenty of means, for them to get their message conveyed. Now, I have worked
quite closely with Chief Bross and his staff here in recent months to try to
create a better relationship and a better atmosphere than we have had over the
past few years, and I have been told by the Chief and by his staff that they
have been very encouraged by the efforts, and here we see a very deliberate
effort to undermine that - to take advantage of a conversation that was made in
good faith. I don't know of anything else that I could add at this time."
Mayor Weisgerber said, "I think so far as the Senate Bill, or unionism
is concerned, the staff has no part either in it or out of it. It is something
you leave alone. It is something that is strictly up to them to promote on their
off time and on the city employee's off time. That is the way it is done in
industry and I see no reason why that isn't the way it would be done here. I
think that is what the attempt was made earlier in December which failed, so I
think they are looking for another out.,,
Mr. Harris said, "Mr. Mayor, I would make one further comment. We did
discuss this with the City Manager, other members of the staff, as to whether or
not we should, as a staff, as the administration, hold an informative type of a
meeting; perhaps bring someone out from the League of Municipalities even, in an
effort to try to get the information out to all city employees as to what this
bill is, what it provides for, so that when they did express an opinion or cast
a vote in any way on it, that they would be informed as to what they were voting
for or against; but our discussion was that it would be inappropriate, that
someone would be bound to misinterpret it, that we were making an effort to
undermine it."
Mayor Weisgerber commented, "I have to think,if we boiled it all down,
the truth to the matter is they are not making any headway with the other
employees, but - well anyway - are there any other comments? We have been over
the ground a great many times before, and if there is something new to be added,
that is fine. I hate to re -hash the same old things over and over."
Commissioner Losik said, "I have a question. Now there are some of
us that have no objections to this and there is others that do. We have had
many, many reasons as to why we should not adopt this bit of legislation at this
time. We have had the fact that 51% of the city employees didn't indicate they
wanted to be in it. We also had this litigation idea, and then we also wanted tc
take time to study it further. Now, speaking to the last one first, the time
to study it further, I think we have had ample time to study this legislation.
As far as the litigation, I don't think that is really a problem at this point
from the standpoint of adopting this, and the fact that 51% of the employees
have not indicated they wanted it is also not a factor in that the legislation
itself indicates, and this was stressed and borne out by the League of
Municipalities,that many communities are adopting this without any employees
even asking for it. Now the reason being is that the League of Municipalities
and every municipality, regardless of the level of government it is at, plus
your school boards, your counties, and all of them are realizing that this thing
of labor relations is becoming a very, very important thing. It is not a matter
of whether we are going to go under this, it is just a matter of when. I think
that what was going to happen - we all holler about the Federal Government and
the States puttin' this stuff out on us - chances are it serves us right when
they do because we don't do it ourselves, and in many cases if we would do things
like this ourselves we would eliminate many of the inequities that are built into
the legislation at state and federal levels. We also have one of the most
important things in this, and I think that is a break from the standpoint of the
governing body - is that if we were to adopt it and decided that it were a
mistake we can pull right back out of it by resolution the same as we adopt it.
h -R
The point right at the - the way I see it right now is not whether we recognize
a union or whether it is a union, or regardless of what the bargaining unit is
called, we have built personalities into this thing already, and this is what
we are trying to eliminate. We are trying to look at an overall program. We
have tried many things in the past to see if it will work to see if we can do
better for our community and our people. We recently passed a Human Relations
Ordinance, to make sure that the other employers in this community give
individuals a fair shake. Now gentlemen if we go ahead and not give our city
employees the same consideration that other employers are forced to give, then
we in fact are discriminating against the city employees who in fact are a
minority. Anyway you hack it the minority is not built in strictly by race,
creed or color. So what I am saying is that I think we ought to look at the
legislation as what it is, not that the fire fighters union is asking for it,
not whether the rest of the employees are asking for it. I would hope that we
would adopt this, and if it isn't working by the same vote we can reject it and
get out of it. Now what is there to lose by doing this, because it certainly -
this thing keeps coming around and coming around. I know we have gained a little
headway, but it is obvious to me that the surrounding communities are adopting
this, there must be a reason for it. We are supposed to be a city on the move.
Many of the communities in this State look to us for guidance and leadership in
many ways. They follow our example, and in this case we are just taking and
passing it off and building in excuses as to why it shouldn't be adopted.
I don't know what there is to fear. We do have an out on it, and I would like
to make a motion we adopt it."
Commissioner Cooper said, "I would like to hear a second from someplace
else, but if I can't get it, I'll do it."
Commissioner Usher said, "I just want to say one thing, and that is
you refer to Human Relations and ordinances. It would seem to me that if we
weren't treating our employees fairly that we would have heard something by now
about it; and as far as every community around us accepting this ordinance or
this Senate Bill, our sister city down south in Wichita turned it down; and I
just don't, perhaps Mike you might be right that eventually we will have this,
but I don't think that this community is ready for it now. If it really were,
I think we would have heard more than what we are hearing right now."
Commissioner Losik said, "Bill, like I say, you could, what you are
saying is, is the same; your opinion and my opinion differ, but we are eligible
to have these opinions; but it appears to me that just west of us here in the
same building they just recently did it. Now I don't know what it takes to -
I hate to have a crisis of some kind come up before we realize or say gee we
have been hit in the head. We have had it called to our attention. We make
provisions in advance on everything else. We budget our moneys, we program
our equipment, and again the League of Municipalities has said it time and again
that we better start getting prepared for this thing. Work with it. If it works
fine, if it don't, again all we need to do is back up. With an option like that
how can we lose?"
Commissioner Cooper said, "I don't know, but the last I heard the
Wichita Commission was - I don't think it was a decided issue. I think it is
something that t'tey are still considering. I don't know that that is the latest,
that happens to be that all I heard about it, but I do know that other communitie
have adopted this and it hasn't been quite the horrendous thing that this
Commission feels that it would be."
Commissioner Caldwell said, "I would only say that Fireman Todd
mentioned he couldn't receive the 51% of the city employees would have an interes
We have been talking about this for a number of years now, and to me if we have
.
been talking about this, whether you had a petition or not, if you have enough
interest to back this program at all I think other city employees would come
to your rescue and say we want this program. Now, where you have - you say
again you have been threatened which I rather doubt. I don't see - at least you
have gotten some communication that you didn't say you had before. The last
time you were here you said you failed to have communications with the staff,
but at least you have made some steps in putting that step forward in reaching th
staff. I feel that if this Senate Bill is a going thing I am sure with all the t
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we have had in the last year or so, that the other city employees would come to
your rescue as I mentioned before and say yes we want Senate Bill 333. And this
is what we left with at our last meeting. That you attempt to contact the other
employees and I don't know whether that is left up to the staff to do that, or
the aggressor who wants it; although you did mention that no City Commissioner is
being sued now, I go along with that; but at the last meeting we heard from you
fellows saying that there would possibly be 2 or 3 other law suits, so we don't
have anything to go on there. Possibly we may be called in again."
Commissioner Losik said, "I just have one question. Now, at this point,
at this point what is the actual manner in which - say a city employee for a
department is authorized to contact city employees in another department regardin
this issue? Now what is the exact procedure that they can legally do, now I am
referring to the personnel manual, to the chain of command. I am referring to
the staff. Just what would be the legal procedure that an individual could go
ahead and pursue this?"
Commissioner Caldwell said, "I think you have department heads. That
would be one place I would start. I would get the department heads together, and
see what they think about the issue. I haven't heard of any other department
heads other than the Fire Department that has pursued this. I would like to make
one other comment. I have never heard any other Commissioner here say he had
approached any other department about this. It always comes up through the
Fire Department only. And I have never heard any Commissioner say that they
have tried to contact any other department in the City to see what they thought
about Senate Bill 333. It always comes from one source; so to me this is rather
leading, it is a biased thing. I think if we are concerned about the City we
should talk to other commissioners, other departments about it. This is my
feeling about it.,,
Commissioner Losik replied, "Bob, let me answer that. Do you feel it is
appropriate for you as a City Commissioner to go to a department head and ask
him to talk to his people and visit with them regarding this thing?"
Commissioner Caldwell said, "I can only answer this, today you brought
this issue up and you said before you said anything you would have - you would
like to hear from someone from the Fire Department. Now I am quite sure that the
Fire Department didn't call me that they were going to ask me that question.
That they were going to be here, but when you started your comments you said I
would rather first hear from someone from the Fire Department."
Commissioner Losik said, "That is right Bob, and I stated the head of
the union."
Commissioner Caldwell replied, "Now, I am only going to go on what you
said. How did you find out that the Fire Department wanted you to say that? Now
you must have approached somebody or they approached you. I am not saying you
approached them, I wouldn't say that. But some way there is some communication
going on somewhere if they knew the Fire Department did it, but you didn't know
anything about the other departments, now that is the only logical answer I can
give."
Commissioner Losik said, "Alright Bob, I can answer that very straight.
It is not a matter of assumption, it is a matter of fact. The records reflect
as you stated, it is only one department that has been pushing for this. The
Fire Department. Do you - I know you know that Mr. Todd is the president of
their union. You recognize Mr. Todd when you see him."
Commissioner Caldwell replied, "I know Mr. Todd."
Commissioner Losik said, "It was all very obvious to me that he wouldn't
be here at this meeting unless he had something to say about all this. Now, that
is just as obvious as us sitting here; so and then I might add the gentleman
sitting back there that had a protest or petition. I don't know him from Adam.
I never talked to him. I just as a matter of record asked the Mayor to go ahead
and see if there was anybody protesting this; so I think we do this as a matter
of routine, and it so happens because of the familiarity of the individuals who
have been bringing this up, Now getting back to what I said, I asked one questio
before and never got an answer to it. What would be the appropriate legal
method for a city employee to contact other city employees in other departments
to discuss this thing? I still don't have an answer to that."
77
Mayor Weisgerber said, "Get it from your legal department."
Mr. Olson stated, "Without too much conversation there was a meeting
called, and I don't know how it was called. You (referring to Mr. Todd) had a
meeting and you invited some, or a lot, or everybody. I don't know who was
invited; but I do know... (Mr. Todd's comment ..??) yes at the central labor
union."
Mayor Weisgerber commented, "Yes, there is nothing wrong with that."
Mr. Olson said, "As far as I know this is appropriate."
Commissioner Losik said, "Alright, this is right, but we are talking
now - there seems to be a problem in differentiating what hat the gentleman is
wearing when he comes here. He is being accused of being a firemen in one point,
and then he is also here in the capacity of a union official. Now this is what
I am trying to say. Is he authorized, wearing the union hat, to contact these
people on an individual basis, or isn't he?"
Mayor Weisgerber said, "He is outside of work."
Commissioner Losik replied, 11That is what I am saying, alright, then
that answers that."
Mayor Weisgerber said, "I don't think that legally, from a legal point
of view, you can either urge him to or urge him not to."
Commissioner Losik said, "No, I am not."
Commissioner Caldwell asked, "Would it be permitted, I know we asked for
a survey some years back to the city employees, could it be within the realm of
the Commission that we pursue that to see. I would like to see what the outcome
is. I keep hearing there are only 45 or 50 people come to these meetings. I
would again like to pursue the idea of sending out a questionnaire to the city
employees to see what they want to do, because I keep hearing the same story over
and over, and no one seems to get to the other employees."
Commissioner Losik said, "That is an excellent idea."
Mr. Olson said, "Mr. Caldwell, that was a very sincere effort on behalf
of the five City Commissioners at that time and you were criticized by some
employees for the manor, method, and wording, and the fact that it wasn't
understood. I mean there were many objections raised to that particular
questionnaire that went out at that time."
Mayor Weisgerber said, "I think you can have no part of it."
Commissioner Losik said, "I want to see what would be the legal method."
Mr. Olson said, "I have been conspicuous by my silence over the past
several months and years, of course. I merely want to support what Mr. Harris
said and our conversations whether I, as City Manager, or he, as Deputy City
Manager, should, or could, draft a communication to all city employees concerning
this specific subject. Now in all candor and in all honesty, I must tell you
that I do not feel that I can. Even though the League of Municipalities has on
several occasions mentioned that administrative people can visit with departments,
can visit with groups, can explain Senate Bill 333. We have chosen not to do this,
and we have very carefully chosen not to do it for a definite reason. Back to my
candor and honesty point, I have been mentioned in 5 law suits, as many as 10 to
20 allegations that I very honestly and sincerely cannot comprehend what some
of the allegations refer to, or mean, or the instance involved. I feel so certain
that if we were to send such a communication that there would be misinterpretation,
misstatements, relating to the communication. I am sorry to have to say it, I
feel this way, and I think I have my rights to my feelings too; and I think this
is about all I should probably say because I think that all of you are aware that
being involved in litigation you don't stand up and make a lot of statements."
Commissioner Caldwell asked, "Would it be permitted, I know we asked for
a survey some years back to the city employees, could it be within the realm of
the Commission that we pursue that to see. I would like to see what the outcome
is. I keep hearing there are only 45 or 50 people come to these meetings. I
would again like to pursue the idea of sending out a questionnaire to the city
employees to see what they want to do, because I keep hearing the same story over
and over, and no one seems to get to the other employees."
Commissioner Losik said, "That is an excellent idea."
Mr. Olson said, "Mr. Caldwell, that was a very sincere effort on behalf
of the five City Commissioners at that time and you were criticized by some
employees for the manor, method, and wording, and the fact that it wasn't
understood. I mean there were many objections raised to that particular
questionnaire that went out at that time."
1
1
Commissioner Losik said, "Bob, there is no reason why we couldn't
clarify and get a good questionnaire made up that would be very simple, to the
point, and it certainly would give us an indication. I see nothing wrong with
that."
Commissioner Caldwell said, "It seems as though the people that are
really concerned could draw up some type of questionnaire. They know the right
questions to ask these folks. I don't, but I would like to get some clarificatior
on just where we stand on the city employees. If the bulk of the city employees
want it, then we may have something else to talk about."
Commissioner Losik said, "That is great Bob, I would like to see that."
Mayor Weisgerber said, "But isn't what you have said too, that if they
favored this, we would have heard from them? I think a person can get involved
sometimes in unsuspecting legal entanglements. You have to be awfully careful
in what you do and don't do along this line, under the rules of the National
Labor Relations Act. I am not sure where we would stand legally on this at all,
but it has always been my observation that if there is a group working within
an industry that wants a union, it is up to them to do their own work. There
has been a great deal of difficulty across this Nation with some of the city
union activity, particularly with fire activity, more than any other, and before
a person makes any move at all you need to know where you stand from a legal
point of view. I think we have been divided on this as a Commission for low
this long a time. I feel like perhaps we should just as well set this back
either until we hear from the employees on their part or from the efforts of the
Fire Department, or else until the Commission changes, one or the other, because
we deadlock every time, in the same way over this same proposition, and as
nearly as I see aside from the fact that the City has won a number of the law
suits we are exactly now where we were when we first started. The City has
gained in winning the various law suits that have come along. There is still
one - two involved - in the civil rights, the Federal suit, is the only one that
is still involved. Everything else has been set down and dismissed."
Commissioner Caldwell commented, "I think, according to the minutes
of December 10, 1 think that Fireman Bruzda mentioned that there were a few
municipalities coming under this Senate Bill 333. He named two - Manhattan and
Great Bend.
Mayor Weisgerber said, "He named Great Bend in error. They voted not to.l"
Commissioner Caldwell said, "But I mean those are the ones he named; but
there haven't been too many cities to adopt this; so I think that would be some
clarification as to want the bill is all about. We don't have too many cities
that have accepted it."
Commissioner Cooper said, " In an issue of our Government Journal from
the League regarding different departments in communities that had voted for
some kind of organization didn't necessarily mean a fire fighters union or
anything else, but I think in the February issue, they did give a breakdown on
that, and Bob, when you say that you would like to have some kind of an opinion
poll or whatever it is, I think when Mr. Bruzda was here in December he suggested
the same thing that the issue could be resolved one way or the other very easily;
just simply by having a ballot among city employees and this would determine and
we wouldn't have this conflict, they do or they do not want 333. How difficult
it would be I wouldn't know, but it doesn't, on the surface,appear like it would
be this complicated or this difficult, either one. Just simply to have the City
employees vote yes or no, doesn't seem that strenuous an excercise, but I think
it would give the Commission some kind of an idea of how genuine the desire is
on the part of the city employees for 333; and then it would either be a dead
issue or something which you would pursue, as far as I am concerned anyway."
Commissioner Losik commented, "Bob, I would like to go along with your
suggestion on that if you still have it. I think it would solve a lot, because
then the figures would be there."
Commissioner Caldwell said, "I don't know what the City Commission
could do about it if it is some legal matter."
79
Commissioner Cooper said, "It isn't a legal matter. The City Commission
is still in the same position it has always been in, there is nothing that requir
them to adopt 333 unless they want to, but it would resolve whether the city
employees do want it or not. Now, whether the Commission wants to adopt it is
still their choice."
Mayor Weisgerber said, "At the moment we have a motion before us."
Commissioner Losik asked the City Attorney, 11Is there any reason this
can't be pursued? Why we couldn't send out the questionnaire?"
The City Attorney replied, "As the Mayor alluded to, Management is
always in the precarious position of not wanting to influence, in any way, its
employees to not join or to join. I would think, as possibly Mr. Caldwell has
indicated, that if and when the employees express an interest to you that they
are in favor of it that you would certainly reconsider. I see nothing wrong
with the firemen, or any other members of the City, if they would wish to petition
you. They can circulate a petition and present it to you stating, yes we wish
for you to adopt Senate Bill 333, and certainly he can contact these employees.
He has indicated he has every one of their names. If a meeting is impossible,
if he wishes to contact these people, they may wish to petition you. If it is
signed by 51', you would pretty quickly know."
Mayor Weisgerber commented, "This is the way it should be done."
Commissioner Losik said, "That isn't the answer. You didn't answer
my question, Larry. I asked you, is there a legal reason why this Commission
can't ask for a survey to be made and without the names of the -- in other
words -- in such a manner so that their name is not on a petition to be shown
to everybody and everything, except to the members of this commission?"
Commissioner Usher asked, "Why wouldn't they want to sign a petition?"
Commissioner Losik replied, "Well now Bill, you are a grown man, I don't
think I need to answer that."
Mayor Weisgerber said, "Ah, come on Mike. In this day and age you can
sign or not sign and you are free to do as you like, you know that."
The City Attorney said, "Normally this is a matter which is not - the
employer does not take the vote among his employees whether they want to or not.
This is something for a group that comes in and attempts to organize them,
build support and take a vote."
Commissioner Losik asked, "Is it illegal for us to do this?"
The City Attorney replied, "I would hate to say yes or no."
Commissioner Losik asked, "Could you get us an answer?"
The City Attorney replied, "I am not sure because I don't know if it has
ever been determined whether a municipality falls under this National Labor
Relations Board or not. I would attempt to find out."
Commissioner Losik asked, "Would you please?"
Mayor Weisgerber said, "We have a motion now that simply says that we
agree to adopt Senate Bill 333. 1 think we have had enough discussion. I think
we should take a vote on this."
Ayes: Cooper, Losik (2). Nays: Caldwell, Usher, Weisgerber (3).
The motion did not carry.
royal
LOJU
Mayor Weisgerber commented, "I would like to come back again to you and
tell you what we have told you several times, and what you darn well know and that
is that if you want to circulate a petition, if you want to get names on cards,
whatever you want to do this is the way it is generally done. There is no reason
why it shouldn't be done this way. It is not going to be done through the staff,
it is not going to be done through city time. Work on it on you own time. If
you get the names in this thing, then sure we are going to pay some attention to
it, and we have told you this repeatedly, and that is why I say I don't think
you have any success with the other employees or surely by this time you would
have been successful in this. There is nothing to be ventured by doing this,
whatever. No penalties connected with it to you, no penalties connected with it
to the person who signs or doesn't sign. You just can't do that legally in this
day, and that is the procedure you should go through to do this. I know, I for
one, if I felt that 51% of the city employees were anxious for this it would be an
entirely different feeling so far as I am concerned; but I have to feel that from
all that has been evident so far that there is a small group of firemen who are
pushing this, they are a very tiny part of some 330 or 340 employees and no one
has proved different although you have the opportunity to.
Commissioner Losik commented, "I'd bet a king size coke that if 51% of
the people indicated that it would still turn out on a 3 to 2 vote."
Mayor Weisgerber commented, "No, I don't think so, not at all.17
Commissioner Usher said, "We are a great commission for petitions, Mike,
if they come in with 51%, I'll be the first one to make the motion."
Commissioner Losik commented, "I seen one here denied with over 2,000
names on it, Bill."
Mayor Weisgerber said, "Well, that is.."
Commissioner Losik interrupted, "..that is different. Every one of
them is different."
Mayor Weisgerber commented, "This is an entirely different situation
all the way. That is right.1°
Commissioner Losik asked to proceed with the public agenda.
Mayor Weisgerber said, "I want to point out that we have said this
repeatedly and we are not changing the position that we have been in."
PUBLIC AGENDA
PETITION NUMBER 3398 was filed by Ben J. Frick for the rezoning of the
South 45 feet of Lot 26 and all of Lot 28, Block 6, Bonds ,Addition from District
"B" (Two -Family Dwelling House District) to District "C" (Apartment District. A
motion was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by Commissioner Losik to refer
the petition to the Metropolitan Planning Commission. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0).
Motion carried.
A LETTER
was received from the Urban Renewal Agency
offering to dedicate,
subject to final concurrence by the Department of Housing and
Urban Development,
river bank area in
the Northeast Industrial Park Urban Renewal
Project.
Mr. Worth
out with the Board
explained there might be a zoning problem
of Zoning Appeals.
that would be worked
A motion
was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by
Commissioner Losik
to accept the dedication,
provided it is in concurrence with
HUD. Ayes: (5).
Nays: (0). Motion
carried.
C�
•
A CEREAL MALT BEVERAGE LICENSE APPLICATION was filed by Carole Barker,
d/b/a The Tap Room, 249 North Santa Fe Avenue. (New). The City Clerk reported
the applicant has paid the required fee, and the application has been approved
by the Health Department, Zoning Officer, and the Police Department. A motion
was made by Commissioner Losik, seconded by Commissioner Usher to approve the
cereal malt beverage license application and authorize the City Clerk to issue
the license. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried.
A REQUEST was received from Tim Linenberger to appear before the
City Commission to present a park proposal for his Eagle Scout Community Service.
Tim Linenberger said, "I took a survey to see if the people wanted a
park or not. 45 out of 47 wanted a park.
"The boundaries covered from South of Cloud, West of Ohio and East of
9th Street. Before I took the survey I visited with Keith Rawlings, the City
Planner, to find a satisfactory location. He said the field north of Magnolia
and West of Quincy is being thought about as a business district and the area
still has leftover land that could maybe be good for a park if the desire of
the public was good enough."
The Commissioners accepted the proposal, and thanked Mr. Linenberger
for his interest in the public welfare, and commented it might be worked out
for the future.
A MOTION was made by Commissioner Caldwell, seconded by Commissioner
Losik that the Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners be adjourned.
Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried.
D. L. Harrison, City Clerk