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12-08-1975 Minutes1 D 1 199 City of Salina, Kansas Special Meeting of the Board of Commissioners December 8, 1975 THE SPECIAL MEETING of the Board of Commissioners met in the Commissioners' Room, City -County Building, on Monday, December 8, 1975, at four o'clock p.m. There were present: Mayor Robert C. Caldwell, Chairman presiding Commissioner Keith G. Duckers Commissioner Gerald F. Simpson Commissioner W. M. Usher Commissioner Jack Weisgerber comprising a quorum of the Board, also: L. O. Bengtson, City Attorney Norris D. Olson, City Manager D. L. Harrison, City Clerk Absent: None The meeting was held for the purpose of acting on the appraisers report for Lateral Sanitary Sewer 531 to serve Lots 1 - 5, Block 1, Wights Addition to the City of Salina, Kansas. (Engineering Project 75-591) Mrs. Lucille Lott was present telling the Commissioners her property ha been hooked up to sanitary sewer for a number of years, and did not feel she shou be charged for sanitary sewer. Commissioner Usher asked how they could hook on to a sewer without bei charged? Mr. Boyer explained, "There are provisions in the ordinances where, if are within the city limits but not within a sewer district, you may run your own line over to hook into an existing part of the system, and pay a lump sum fee for the privilege of hooking on." Commissioner Duckers asked how this is recorded? Mr. Boyer explained it is recorded in the Water Department records. Commissioner Usher asked, "And you don't find any record there of that?" Mr. Boyer replied, "We did on the neighbor's house." Commissioner Usher said, "Do you suppose they could have done it at the same time, by the same builder?" Mr. Boyer replied, "Oh, yes, it could happen." Mr. Bengtson explained to the Commissioners, "I think what happened is that when they set up a special benefit district, we have Lateral Sewer Districts and Main Sewer Districts. Normally all property is required to be in at least one Main Sewer District and also one Lateral Sewer District. You can not be in more than one lateral district. As it appears, the dividing line on the sewer district was between her house and the house that got charged for this. If she can show us that she has paid, and she was included in the lateral sewer district, certainly could not charge her again, but if the record shows that her neighbor did pay and she didn't, it would just appear that she had the benefits all these years of our lateral sewer district and has never been in one, and certainly she is obligated, at some time, to be in a lateral sewer district, and this is why she was put in this time because we would run it over to the adjacent lateral sewer district. She may have had a free ride up until now, and is paying for now, what she could have paid for maybe 25 years ago." 2.0 0 A Motion was made by Commissioner Weisgerber, seconded by Commissioner Duckers, to approve the appraisers report and to introduce the assessment ordinance for first reading. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. Ordinance Passed: Number: A MOTION was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by Commissioner Simpson that the Special Meeting of the Board of Commissioners be adjourned. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. D. L. Harrison, City Clerk 1 1 201 City of Salina, Kansas Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners December 8, 1975 The Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners met in the Commissione s' Room, City -County Building, on Monday, December 8, 1975, at four o'clock p.m. The Mayor asked everyone to stand for the pledge of allegiance to the Flag and a moment of silent prayer. There were present: Mayor Robert C. Caldwell, Chairman presiding Commissioner Keith G. Duckers Commissioner Gerald F. Simpson Commissioner W. M. Usher Commissioner Jack Weisgerber comprising a quorum of the Board, also: L. 0. Bengtson, City Attorney Norris D. Olson, City Manager D. L. Harrison, City Clerk Absent: None The Minutes of the Regular Meeting of November 24, 1975, were approved as printed. STAFF AGENDA A RESOLUTION was introduced and passed entitled: "A RESOLUTION determining the advisability of water main improvements, estimating the cost thereof, defining the boundaries of the improvement district, method of assessment, and apportioning the cost between the improvement district, and the City -at -large." A motion was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by Commissioner Duckers to adopt the Resolution as read and the following vote was had: Ayes: Duckers, Simpson, Usher, Weisgerber, Caldwell (5). Nays: (0). Carried. The Mayor approved the Resolution and it is numbered 3253. AN ORDINANCE was introduced for second reading entitled: "AN ORDINANCE establishing the license fee for pawnbrokers doing business within the City of Salina, Kansas." A motion was made by Commissioner Duckers, seconded by Commissioner Simpson to adopt the ordinance as read and the following vote was h Ayes: Duckers, Simpson, Usher, Weisgerber, Caldwell (5). Nays: (0). Carried. The Mayor approved the ordinance and it is numbered 8461. The ordinance was introduced for first reading November 24, 1975. A MOTION was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by Commissioner Duckers to introduce an ordinance for first reading entitled: "AN ORDINANCE divesting the Urban Renewal Agency of Salina, Kansas, of all powers previously conferred upon it and restoring such powers to the Governing Body of the City of Salina, Kansas; abolishing the Urban Renewal Agency as hereintofore established and repealing Resolution Number 2819." Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. Ordinance Passed: Number: A MOTION was made by Commissioner Weisgerber, seconded by Commissioner Simpson to introduce an ordinance for first reading entitled: "AN ORDINANCE prescribing the corporate limits of the City of Salina, Kansas, including land described in Ordinance Number 8458, and repealing Ordinance Number 8404." Ayes: 5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. Ordinance Passed: Number: D 1 '1 202 A LETTER was received from the City Planning Commission recommending the approval of Petition Number 3514, filed by Lyle E. Lightfoot for the approval of final redevelopment plan for property in the Northeast Industrial Park. A motion was made by Commissioner Simpson, seconded by Commissioner Usher to acce the recommendation of the City Planning Commission and approve the final redevelo ment plans for property in the Northeast Industrial Park. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. A LETTER was received from the City Planning Commission recommending th approval of the Final Plat of Northeast Industrial Park, Block 7, as requested by Petition Number 3414-G filed by the Urban Renewal Agency. A motion was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by Commissioner Duckers to approve the final plat of Northeast Industrial Park, Block 7, and authorize the Mayor to sign. Ayes: (5 Nays: (0). Motion carried. PUBLIC AGENDA A REQUEST was received from Toni Renfro, Executive Director of the Sali Downtown Merchant's Association to be on the City Commission agenda to dedicate 100 live pine trees to the City of Salina to be planted in the city parks. Mrs. Renfro was present, and said she was here to dedicate the trees to the city, and to tell the Commissioners that the Salina Downtown Merchant's Association and associate members of the particular stores and several new people are again proud to take on this project to decorate the downtown area for the holiday season and hoped that the city is pleased with what they have done. The trees will be planted in the city parks again this year. She thanked the city staff for their help, and thanked the Distributive Education classes of Central High School who helped make the bows and decorate the trees. The Mayor and Commissioners thanked her for the trees and for decora the downtown area. A REQUEST was received from James R. Todd, President of Local 782 of th International Association of Fire Fighters, for the City Commissioners to give consideration to the adoption of the Kansas Public Employee -Employer Relation Law K.S.A. 75-4321. Mr. Todd was present and said, "Mr. Mayor, as you know, I have been bef you several times and you pretty well know my feelings, and I pretty well know yo The only additional information that I do have is I wrote to the League of Municipalities, and requested the number of cities which have come under the meet and confer. I don't know if you all received it or not, and so therefore I took the liberty to copy. There are now 47 cities which are presently under the meet and confer, or they have passed an ordinance adopting it, and out of these 47 cities, I believe there is a number of 7 of them that have started some sort of negotiations with their employees. The 7 cities are Chanute, Hays, Hutchinson, Manhattan, Topeka, and Wichita. That is 6 of them there; anyway they say that there have been 7 that have started negotiations. It also says in this prepared information from the League of the various unions that are active in the State of Kansas, as far as Municipal Employees are concerned. It lists right there that the International Association of Fire Fighters represents the employees of Coffeyville, Hays, Hutchinson, Kansas City, Manhattan, Salina, Topeka and Wichita The reason why I am bringing up this point is the fact that, according to State Law, in order to go out and organize municipal employees you have to be a State business agent, and so licensed by the State of Kansas. I, myself, am licensed to go out and organize other fire departments, which I have done in the past. As far as organizing other city employees of Salina, I have not; because I am not licensed to do so. I think this was one of our problems last time I spoke before the Commission for the fact that no other city employees wished to come under it at this time. If we adopt this, if this is adopted, there may be a chance that the other city employees will come forth. There are guidelines set out, procedur which have to be followed, including the - there will be election by the PERB Boa from the State of Kansas. They are the ones that run the election to see if you have 51% of a certain department, or a certain group of employees that wish to have a certain person or certain organization represent them, as far as meet and confer. We have well over 500 of the Fire Department that do belong to Local 782 and therefore I feel like, as far as our particular union is concerned, we have n problem. So again, like I say I am not really here to debate any increments of t law. Mr. Bengtson is here. I think he is quite adequate and up on the law as fa that goes, and all I am doing is merely requesting that the City Commission adopt the K.S.A. 75-4321. Thank you." re rs. s as 203 Mayor Caldwell asked, "Have you put any effort at all into contacting any of the other city employees?" Mr. Todd replied, "No, I haven't." Commissioner Duckers said, "Mr. Mayor, I reviewed the minutes of the several Commission meetings where this has been discussed, over the course of the last two or three years, and being new on the Commission I wanted to get as much background on this as I could, and it seems to me that the theme that ran through about all of the former discussions of this was the fact that there was no movemen on the part of any other city employees, other than the Fire Department, to adopt 333 and I am just wondering. I would like to direct a question to the City Manage if there has been any overtures made by any other than fire - the policemen or the street department or any other city employees to come under this." Mr. Olson replied, "Certainly not - not as far as I am aware, but it very well could be that I would be the last to be so advised, or even become aware of it. But I have heard nothing, pro or con." Commissioner Duckers said, "I was reading what - I guess you were Mayor, Jack, the last time this came up. I was reading your final comments of the last minutes that I have, and that was it seemed to be that you were directing Mr. Todd and others to - if there was some other indication from other city employees if they were even interested in the slightest in this, we would, the Commission would become more active." Commissioner Weisgerber said, "There is still one suit that was appealed to the Circuit Court of Appeals, is that correct?" Mr. Todd replied, "That is correct." Commissioner Duckers asked, "Where is that?" Mr. Todd replied, "It is going to be filed in the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver Colorado, and what it is, it is an appeal on Judge Templar's ruling here in Salina; and Mr. Bengtson could probably elaborate more than what I can, because I am really a layman; but that is the next step as far as appeals go. You brought up the fact also that we were supposed to go ahead and contact the other city employees. I don't know how far you went back in the minutes, but if you go back to your June 25, 1974 City Commission meeting, a motion was made by Mr. Usher that the City Commission check into this further and see how many city employees wanted to come under it, and their attempts were about as great as what mine was." Commissioner Duckers asked, "You have not made any attempt or had any overtures made to you? That is what I can't understand. I have only been on the Commission since April, but I have not had one single person even mention this to me in a remote way. Now, maybe - admittedly maybe a city employee would feel tha this is not within their purview to do this, but it seems to me like a friend of one or someone would come up to me and say, 'when are you guys going to meet and confer'? And I have not had anyone mention this to me and it seems to me that this seems strange that there doesn't seem to be any interest." Mr. Todd said, "As far as litigations go, I think the only member of the City Commission at this time, involved in any litigation, is the Mayor himsel He is going to follow it all the way through like I am, as well as the City Manag But the litigation that we actually have, this really has no effect on it. Mr. Bengtson can elaborate on that." Commissioner Weisgerber said, "I think that was one theme, Keith. I think another was that there was concern at that time too that particularly many of those have been settled in court now, I think however there still is one suit pending. It was appealed to the Appellate Court; but the fact that there were a number of law suits against the city was another matter that was brought up at the time." Commissioner Duckers asked, "There is still pending litigation?" Commissioner Weisgerber said, "There is still one suit that was appealed to the Circuit Court of Appeals, is that correct?" Mr. Todd replied, "That is correct." Commissioner Duckers asked, "Where is that?" Mr. Todd replied, "It is going to be filed in the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver Colorado, and what it is, it is an appeal on Judge Templar's ruling here in Salina; and Mr. Bengtson could probably elaborate more than what I can, because I am really a layman; but that is the next step as far as appeals go. You brought up the fact also that we were supposed to go ahead and contact the other city employees. I don't know how far you went back in the minutes, but if you go back to your June 25, 1974 City Commission meeting, a motion was made by Mr. Usher that the City Commission check into this further and see how many city employees wanted to come under it, and their attempts were about as great as what mine was." Commissioner Duckers asked, "You have not made any attempt or had any overtures made to you? That is what I can't understand. I have only been on the Commission since April, but I have not had one single person even mention this to me in a remote way. Now, maybe - admittedly maybe a city employee would feel tha this is not within their purview to do this, but it seems to me like a friend of one or someone would come up to me and say, 'when are you guys going to meet and confer'? And I have not had anyone mention this to me and it seems to me that this seems strange that there doesn't seem to be any interest." Mr. Todd said, "As far as litigations go, I think the only member of the City Commission at this time, involved in any litigation, is the Mayor himsel He is going to follow it all the way through like I am, as well as the City Manag But the litigation that we actually have, this really has no effect on it. Mr. Bengtson can elaborate on that." 204 Commissioner Weisgerber said, "A question, just for information. The Appellate Court they will act only on the hearings, and the briefs that were filed in the District Court. They take no new evidence, no new testimony, nothing new." Mr. Bengtson explained, "They are the same as our Supreme Court. They review the record that was made here. The evidence, the pleadings, and everything and they merely rule on the record, and no new evidence is introduced or anything. It is just a determination whether the Judge correctly ruled or not, based on the trial proceedings." Commissioner Duckers asked, "Larry, how were the others previous several suits disposed of? What was - were they just withdrawn? or was there.." Mr. Bengtson said, "No, each and every one of them went to a judgement, in favor of the City, and I think two of them were appealed to the Supreme Court of Kansas, and both were affirmed by the Supreme Court. This last suit that is pending is a Federal Court case in which they allege that their civil rights were violated in certain respects, and of course Judge Templar held that they were not, and so they have appealed his ruling that their civil rights were not violated. So it is actually a civil rights case, that is now pending in the Federal court." Commissioner Weisgerber said, "Well, this last case is against the City Manager, personally, or he and the City together, or what?" Mr. Bengtson explained, "The last case was filed against the City Manaq against the Commissioners, and against the City of Salina. In the early stages of this case, the case was dismissed as to the City Commissioners, the case was dismissed as to the City of Salina, and the sole defendant that eventually ended up was the City Manager. No appeal has been taken from those orders whereby the appeal is from the decision of the judge as to the violation of the civil rights not as to the dismissal as to these other defendants." Mayor Caldwell said, "I would like to address this to the Fire Chief. Through the chain of command, and I realize you have union and non-union in the Fire Department. What extent through the group that Mr. Todd is representing channel things through you to the Commission or to the City Manager, and what doe the other group do in that effort?" Fire Chief Bross responded, "The same thing." Mayor Caldwell asked, "They channel it through you?" Fire Chief Bross responded, "Yes." Mayor Caldwell said, "As I recall the last four or five times the Fire Department brought up this same idea, there was lack of communication between the heads of the Department, especially the Fire Department, the Chief, and we never could realize, couldn't understand why this wouldn't come before with some of the grievances, and what would cause them not to go through you." Fire Chief Bross responded, "Well, I don't understand the accusation of lack of communication because as far as I am aware of we have always had communication that everyone desired both ways, but I know I was here the time tha that statement was made. The man that made it, I spent an hour and a half or two hours visiting with on the Saturday prior to Monday Commission meeting. I don't understand why he made that statement. Never did." Mayor Caldwell asked, "Any other comments?" Commissioner Simpson said, "I am curious, I guess, as to whether or not an individual employee has the right now to meet and confer with his employer regarding his salary, working conditions, or other conditions of employment. Is anybody denied the right to confer with his employer?" Commissioner Usher asked, "Would that come under grievance procedures? The meet and confer? I re -read the personnel manual again last night and there is - it is very clearly drawn in there about grievance, if you have a city employee has a grievance of one kind or another, and is that considered meet and confer or not?" Mr. Olson replied, "I would not consider that - are you asking me?" Commissioner Usher said, "Yeah." Mr. Olson said, "I question that the language of our personnel manual is broad enough to cover what a court would rule as being meet and confer legislation. Of course, I think I have not said very much in the past. I think you can all appreciate why. I am not about to make any statements while trial testimony was pending, but I do think that in past visits here, both with Mr. Todd and with Mr. Bruzda, and anyone else who addressed the subject, were very often encouraged to try and use the machinery that is available, see if that would work. Maybe you could get more mileage out of the present machinery of visiting, working with Lieutenants and Captains and Chiefs. In hopefully, probab a low key type of situation and certainly they would get the opinions of the Captains and the Chiefs as to whether any idea would merit consideration as far a they were concerned. To my knowledge I don't know that any of this has happened. I am not aware if it has, I don't believe. I don't know all the conversations that take place in all departments, but I don't know what issues would be at stake frankly today, or next week, or next year." Commissioner Usher said, "Of course that - I am wondering if the personnel manual shouldn't be reviewed with the idea in mind of expanding a littl bit on it so that if there are groups that want to meet and confer that there is an outline, a plan for them to meet and confer. There are other areas in that manual that have got to be changed because they are in violation of civil rights, and I think probably now is the time we ought to re -analyse it and rework it, and bring it up to date." Mr. Olson said, "There has been a substantial amount of work done on personnel manual. Of course, we are trying to incorporate the ideas and the thinking of a lot of different staff people. I am hopeful that after the first of the year you will have some kind of a rough draft of changes and the like we have for consideration in relation to the personnel manual." Commissioner Usher said, "That would be great." Commissioner Duckers said, "Mr. Mayor, I have a question I would like to direct to Mr. Todd. What do you envision being able to accomplish under new - if this new legislation were adopted by the City of Salina, that you cannot accomplish now?" Mr. Olson replied, "To my knowledge, there has never anyone been denied of this right. We have met, I personally have met with singular employees, Sanitation Department, Street Department, Park Department, Water and Sewer Department, Police Department. There is five of them I recall. There is others I am sure. I have met with groups of two or three. I have met with entire Departments, and the Department Heads are encouraged to communicate, to be aware of what is going on in their Departments. This is a function of being a good Department Head, and I can assure you that the Department Heads certainly have never been bashful, or in my opinion negligent in relaying to me matters that are of concern to a singular employee, or a group of employees. I am sure they don't every issue and every instance, but certainly I have never felt that this was a problem in Salina, Kansas. Barring the claims that have in the past been made by the representatives of the Fire Department, and I think if anyone took time to read some of the complaints that were alleged in accusations that were made in the suits, four out of five of these never made it to the judge, as far as trial was concerned." Commissioner Usher asked, "Would that come under grievance procedures? The meet and confer? I re -read the personnel manual again last night and there is - it is very clearly drawn in there about grievance, if you have a city employee has a grievance of one kind or another, and is that considered meet and confer or not?" Mr. Olson replied, "I would not consider that - are you asking me?" Commissioner Usher said, "Yeah." Mr. Olson said, "I question that the language of our personnel manual is broad enough to cover what a court would rule as being meet and confer legislation. Of course, I think I have not said very much in the past. I think you can all appreciate why. I am not about to make any statements while trial testimony was pending, but I do think that in past visits here, both with Mr. Todd and with Mr. Bruzda, and anyone else who addressed the subject, were very often encouraged to try and use the machinery that is available, see if that would work. Maybe you could get more mileage out of the present machinery of visiting, working with Lieutenants and Captains and Chiefs. In hopefully, probab a low key type of situation and certainly they would get the opinions of the Captains and the Chiefs as to whether any idea would merit consideration as far a they were concerned. To my knowledge I don't know that any of this has happened. I am not aware if it has, I don't believe. I don't know all the conversations that take place in all departments, but I don't know what issues would be at stake frankly today, or next week, or next year." Commissioner Usher said, "Of course that - I am wondering if the personnel manual shouldn't be reviewed with the idea in mind of expanding a littl bit on it so that if there are groups that want to meet and confer that there is an outline, a plan for them to meet and confer. There are other areas in that manual that have got to be changed because they are in violation of civil rights, and I think probably now is the time we ought to re -analyse it and rework it, and bring it up to date." Mr. Olson said, "There has been a substantial amount of work done on personnel manual. Of course, we are trying to incorporate the ideas and the thinking of a lot of different staff people. I am hopeful that after the first of the year you will have some kind of a rough draft of changes and the like we have for consideration in relation to the personnel manual." Commissioner Usher said, "That would be great." Commissioner Duckers said, "Mr. Mayor, I have a question I would like to direct to Mr. Todd. What do you envision being able to accomplish under new - if this new legislation were adopted by the City of Salina, that you cannot accomplish now?" 206 Commissioner Duckers asked, "Did they explain to you what they meant by working with the staff?" Mr. Todd replied, "Mr. Duckers, at the present time we have had several things that pertain to firefighters in general. One of them being the fact that that our manpower is down so low. I don't know if you are all aware of it, but at the present time we have no assistant chief in the Fire Department, because Chief Bross actually holds that position, and he has the title of Acting Fire Chie We are also down 6 firefighters. You can't expect, you know, men to become super men over night when you start running short of man power. So theoretically we are 7 firefighters short, meaning the ones that actually get into the actual fire situation. This is one of the problems right now. I think Captain Vaupel is here he would vouch for that. His shift is real, real low, or not real low, but lower than what it should be at the present time. Another problem was that men in the union, we have payroll deduction, almost all the Fire Department has always been on United Fund but they have stopped it, and they have stopped it for the reason t cannot have payroll deduction for union dues. We - in the past we were told that there was no slot on our paycheck for union deductions. Okay we have a new system now and there is other slots on our paychecks where we can have union dues deducte We submitted this to the staff, and the staff stopped it, and they said until we showed that we are working with the staff, they wouldn't submit it to the City Manager. And it is just things like this. They are not large things." Commissioner Duckers asked, "Did they explain to you what they meant by working with the staff?" Mr. Olson said, "You may have that before the end of the year, if it is at all possible." Mr. Todd said, "We had a car wreck over in Oakdale Park. Gib Cunningham, who has Cunningham Designs, wanted to know why we didn't have a 'jaws of life'. Because evidentally it was more important to have this nozzle. But these 'jaws of life' could get a victim out and help somebody, or could. (Unintelligible) makes fire coats out on the market today, they are not that high priced. Better protection for fire fighters themselves. At one time they were $1,000 a coat. They are down now. Better equipment. There is no sense in sticking to the old traditional fire helmets, they have federal helments out now, Bell has helmets out now, better constructed, check into different type of equipment. They are constantly improving in the fire service, and we are interested in not only protecting the citizens of Salina but protecting the members of the Salina Fire Department, and like I say, we are not bad guys, don't get us wrong, but we really are not." Commissioner Duckers said, "Well, I don't think anybody thinks you are bad guys, but I am wondering why you can't just simply run those things through channels and say we would like these coats, we would like the jaws of life." Mr. Todd replied, "No, he said that he would, something about any organization I proport to represent, I don't remember the actual wording over ther but they didn't bother me that bad. I am just like the Commissioners. I am elected by the members of my local Fire Union to represent them and to come forth and speak on any issues they feel important. I am elected by a certain body and I have to represent them. Theoretically you are elected by the people and you represent the people of the City of Salina, so actually we are in the same situati and it is just small things like this. Nothing big. We are not going to ask for $100.00 across the board raise, because we know the money is not there. I would venture to say the city employees are probably more up on the financial situation of the City of Salina than what most citizens are, because we know, we know what the budgets are. Another thing the City Commission said that a $54,000 nozzle or whatever it was that they thought was good to have in the Fire Department. The fire fighters believe that we should have 'jaws of life'. It is more important to get a person out of a car wreck than it is to have a $54,000 nozzle that just one firefighter can use. True it is a good nozzle, but I think we have one truck now if we narrow it down to, that they could possibly put it on, and that is Engine 31 out at Schilling. Small things, but things that concern better fire protection for the City of Salina." Mr. Olson said, "You may have that before the end of the year, if it is at all possible." Mr. Todd said, "We had a car wreck over in Oakdale Park. Gib Cunningham, who has Cunningham Designs, wanted to know why we didn't have a 'jaws of life'. Because evidentally it was more important to have this nozzle. But these 'jaws of life' could get a victim out and help somebody, or could. (Unintelligible) makes fire coats out on the market today, they are not that high priced. Better protection for fire fighters themselves. At one time they were $1,000 a coat. They are down now. Better equipment. There is no sense in sticking to the old traditional fire helmets, they have federal helments out now, Bell has helmets out now, better constructed, check into different type of equipment. They are constantly improving in the fire service, and we are interested in not only protecting the citizens of Salina but protecting the members of the Salina Fire Department, and like I say, we are not bad guys, don't get us wrong, but we really are not." Commissioner Duckers said, "Well, I don't think anybody thinks you are bad guys, but I am wondering why you can't just simply run those things through channels and say we would like these coats, we would like the jaws of life." 20 Mr. Todd replied, "That brings up these things I just brought up. Here we are we submit a plan for payroll deduction." Commissioner Duckers said, "No, you are saying two different things. Have you asked for.." Mr. Todd said. "I went through channels with that and got stopped.." Mr. Todd and Commissioner Duckers .. (unintelligible) Commissioner Duckers asked, "Have you gone through channels with the jaws of life?" Mr. Todd replied, "No I haven't, sir." Commissioner Duckers asked, "Well why? Did you hear what the City Manager just said to you?" Mr. Todd replied, "No, I didn't." Commissioner Duckers said, "You very well may have it before the end of the year." Mr. Olson commented, "Well his Chief went - his Chief submitted it in the budget proposal last year." Commissioner Duckers said, "You are talking about two different things, you are talking about jaws of life and then you are switching around and saying about payroll deduction for union dues." Mr. Todd said, "I'm talking about going through the same chain of comm that you are referring to. If they are going to stop it on one item." Mr. Olson said, "We could have cut out some salary increases last year bought a jaws of life. I mean these are judgements that I don't alone make." Commissioner Usher said, "Payroll deduction, I don't know why in the world we can't do that." Mr. Harris said, "Mr. Mayor, if I may, I think there is something we should all keep in mind is the limitations of this law. Now the only thing that it provides for in the meet and confer aspect, is to discuss and try to arrive at an agreement on the conditions of employment. That is defined as meaning salaries wages, hours of work, vacation allowances, sick and injury leave, number of holida s, retirement benefits, insurance benefits, wearing apparel, premium pay for overtime, shift differential pay, jury duty, and grievance procedures. And it defines a grievance as a statement of dissatisfaction by a public employee, supervisory employee, employee organization, or public employer, concerning interpretation of a memorandum of agreement or traditional work practice. Now this doesn't relate to all types of grievances. Disciplinary action, is an example. Another very important aspect of this, the existing rights of public employer is not affected. Nothing in this act is intended to circumscribe or modify the existing right of a public employer to A. Direct the work of its employees; B. Hire, promote, demote, transfer, assign, and retain employees in positions within the public agency; C. Suspend or discharge employees for proper cause; D. Maintain the efficiency of governmental operation; E. Relieve employees from duties because of lack of work or other legitimate reasons; F. Take actions as may be necessary to carry out the mission of the agency in emergencies; G. Determine the methods, means, and personn of which operations are to be carried on. Now those are the limitations of the 1 t me and confer bill. We have time and time again encouraged and stressed to the personnel of the Fire Department that they have a staff that should be speaking for them, and if they have a proposal, a recommendation, suggestion, request or whatever, that they should submit it to the Chief to give he and the staff the opportunity to consider it, and evaluate it, if they feel they can support it, to recommend it on to the City Manager. We would hope that that Fire Chief and the Assistant Chief, the Captains are in a far better position, through their years of experience to weigh these matters, assign priorities, and make the recommendations to the City Manager than the Firemen, people that are not in the supervisory 208 capacity or the administrative capacity. And it seems they get hung up on one thing and if they don't happen to get it, they feel it is a lost cause; but the City operation in general, you gentlemen are well aware that we have financial limitations. It comes down to the point when we are in budget operations that we have to determine priorities. Now these gentlemen have every opportunity to utili that staff and work with them, to make recommendations, to support a case, whateve it might be, a recommendation or a request, to put together their case and present it to that staff and see if they can gain their support. If they don't, the staff has the responsibility in return to tell them why they cannot support it. And if they bring it over to the City Manager and it has to be side-tracked here or delay or whatever, we'll respond. That Chief is made aware, as all the Department Heads are, as to why a certain thing cannot be done or it has a lower priority than another item. And it just doesn't appear that they want to make the effort to utilize the channels that are available to them." Mayor Caldwell said, "I would like to comment on this apparatus, the jaws of life, is that right? I happen to be there the day they had the demonstration for that Fire Department, and that hasn't been over four or five months ago, or maybe less. And I didn't know whether the City had known about it before or not, but your suggestion that this was - the City Manager said this might be placed in the budget, as far as I know it might be forthcoming. But that hasn't been so terribly long ago, that this was demonstrated to the Fire Departmen so it couldn't have been asked for any earlier than that, as far as I know, becaus if the demonstration was at the time I was there that I just gave my approval of i I didn't know that much about it. I just happened to be there to see it, and I thought it was a good instrument, and it hasn't been that long ago that it was brought up as far as I know, but what I am trying to say is that you didn't know about it until that demonstration as far as I am concerned." Mr. Harris said, "Mr. Mayor, I think there is one other thing that shoul Mayor Caldwell recognized Mr. Todd. be brought out in the open here, and possibly if we surface more of these issues here it would help everyone, and I am going to put the Fire Chief on the spot a little bit I think, but he conveyed to me the other day, that he is under the impression at least, that some of these fellows feel that if the City came under this meet and confer bill that they would have the opportunity to deal directly with the Governing Body. Meet and confer with the elected officials. If they have a grievance, that they could take it directly to the City Commission. In our form of government, and I think most of you gentlemen, if not all of you, have attended a number of workshops on these things, and the employer-employee relations. If that is the case, if that is what some of these fellows have in mind, that just cannot happen in this form of government. There is no way with the Commission - Manager form of government, where the elected officials sit as a policy making gro and you have a City Manager that is your chief administrator, to carry out and administer that policy, that that organizational structure can be undermined and bypassed. Now I don't know if that is the case or not, but that is what the Chief told me the other day and I bring that out, not for the purpose of creating more debate or hassle of some type, but if these fellows were laboring under that impression, I think it should be clarified. That there is just no way that that can come about. If an agreement is worked out, if the City Commission decided to come under it, we entered into meet and confer, and an agreement was worked out, it would relate to the things that are specified in that State Statute, and then it would be up to the same organizational structure we have today to work under that agreement, and if there was grievance it would not go to the governing body. Now apparently Mr. Todd is indicating agreement with me in shaking his head yes, no and so forth. We think everybody concerned should be knowledgeable about this legislation or its provisions and its limitations and so forth. We have all been quite hesitant to talk about this legislation. For one thing, we have been fearful that we would be accused of misdirecting the people, holding a hammer over their heads and so forth, and that is not the case. We think that everybody that is concerned about it should be well informed on its provisions and limitations. And how to go about that is something else. Maybe the Chief wants to add somethin to that." Mayor Caldwell recognized Mr. Todd. 2©9 Fire Chief Bross said, "It seems to me Mr. Mayor, that we do apparently have a problem with communications. First of all Mr. Todd mentioned that we were down 7 men, we are budgeted for 70 and at this time we have 65, so he apparently misunderstands how many people we are short. We are short 5. This nozzle the cost of it, this automated flow control nozzle, was between $12,000 and $13,000 and he quoted $54,000; however each Fire Station has a budget book, we made them available so that they would be able to study the budget and know what we asked for and what was approved. The statement that we would prefer the jaws of life; this request has been forwarded, as the City Manager said, to his office, and is under consideration I am sure, by his office at this time. Apparently we aren't together. Captain Vaupel sitting right behind me here might have something to comment along that line, I'll not say whether he would want to get into that or not but I am sure that we may have a little more work to do along this line ourselves'."' Mayor Caldwell said, "Well, what you are telling us is that it is not being done right at the fire station, that there is lack of communication. If all this material is available, I am sure it is available to the other firemen." Chief Bross replied, "Yes, we have made no special effort to disseminate any information to the union, we have sent it down through the regular fire Department staff. Now maybe we should meet with the union president, the staff, and discuss with him. We haven't done this in the past, and this is what I am saying possibly we are at fault in this area of communication." Commissioner Duckers said, "Well, I certainly wouldn't fault you on that If you are sending it down through your staff lines, that is the way you are organized over there, and it seems to me that it is up to them to - how could you possibly pick up the $50,000 figure when .." Mr. Todd said, "There is a stipulation.." Commissioner Usher said, "No." Mr. Todd said, "Isn't there, okay." Commissioner Usher explained, "You can be organized as the Salina Fire Department organization and if we are under 333 and meet and confer with the City Manager. You don't have to be a union. As long as you are a group and you are recognized, why you can meet and confer under 333." Mr. Olson said, "I might merely elaborate on what Mr. Harris said, in this form of government, I think the bill has designated that in other forms of government the same type of negotiating will take place by chief administrative officers of whatever their titles are, or their designate." Mr. Todd replied, "Well, again, like I say, these various instruments when they first come out and they are prototypes, I go by that, because that is the first bit of information I see. I did misquote, I will admit that, that is th reason why he is the Chief and I wasn't prepared, in fact, to make that statement. I use it roughly, approximately at one time before just like anything else that is a prototype. One comment, that I held up my hand and you called on me that I want to elaborate on what Mr. Harris said, was the fact that first of all I think there are guidelines set out that says that any individual or any unit, appropriate unit bargaining unit will meet with the City Manager or his designate. I think it is spelled out there in black and white; and also its not the whole Fire Department that he or his designate will meet with, it will be a duly licensed business agent through the State of Kansas representing that organization or that group." Commissioner Duckers asked, "Will that be one of our own local firemen? Or will that be somebody from Kansas City or Wichita or someplace?" Mr. Todd replied, "It will be right here in the City of Salina." Commissioner Usher said, "You don't have to be licensed to meet and confl with the City Manager. The State of Kansas. If you are recognized.." Mr. Todd said, "Under this bill you are." Commissioner Usher said, "No, I don't think.." Mr. Todd said, "There is a stipulation.." Commissioner Usher said, "No." Mr. Todd said, "Isn't there, okay." Commissioner Usher explained, "You can be organized as the Salina Fire Department organization and if we are under 333 and meet and confer with the City Manager. You don't have to be a union. As long as you are a group and you are recognized, why you can meet and confer under 333." Mr. Olson said, "I might merely elaborate on what Mr. Harris said, in this form of government, I think the bill has designated that in other forms of government the same type of negotiating will take place by chief administrative officers of whatever their titles are, or their designate." 210 Mayor Caldwell asked if there is any other comment? Commissioner Usher said,"Well, I like the Chief's response too, because I think the whole thing is a matter of communication. I don't care who or what, who is at fault or what side should have done what. If we can maintain communication then I think we have got the job done, and if the Chief thinks maybe they could d a little bit more towards communicating, let's try it and see if it doesn't help. That is the key to the whole thing. Go a little extra mile, make a little more extra effort. But I agree with you, Bill. Once it goes the other direction it is going to be very defined, there will be no deviation or latitude. I don't think anybody wants that, yet." Commissioner Duckers said, "We had ample opportunity to hear about this last week at the National Conference of Cities meeting, where the cities that hav collective bargaining are in such a mess that you can't believe it, and we all said what a relief it is to come back to Salina, Kansas, to an area where you can be fair with your people and they are fair with you and they do you a good job. I know better than anyone in this room what a super job the Salina Fire Departmen does, like run clear across town in three minutes. I talked to people from Gary, Indiana, where it takes an hour to get a policeman to your house after a holdup. Thirty minutes to get to a fire, and we don't know how good we have it here, and we want to be fair with the people, but we don't want to place ourselves in a position where we become a Kansas City. Mayor Wheeler talked about their problem down there, firemen wouldn't go fight fires, we don't have that in Salina. I fo. one want to keep it that way, but I want to be fair to the people." Mayor Caldwell said, "I would just like to .. I don't find it exactly in the minutes, but I think I have got a .. July 25, 1973, where we sent out a questionnaire to all the city employees to try to set up a grievance committee, and I don't know what the vote was, but at the time that it was turned down and turned down by all the city employees. Why they did that I don't know, but they felt like they didn't want it at that time. If I am right in stating that. Am I right?" Mr. Harris replied, "Mr. Mayor, you are right, that that thing was voted down. There is a grievance procedure as Mr. Usher related to you a while ago in the personnel manual. It deals strictly with disciplinary action. I think this thing is relatively new to all of us. We have never been in collective bargaining, so we certainly lack expertise in the field. It is my considered opinion though, and I have heard this same concern from other people. If we did have a written agreement, that the employees would, in fact, over a period of time, might find imposed on them, more restrictions than what they have today. So when you go to the table to discuss the matter, to negotiate, each side is going to be placing demands on the other. Whereas today all departments, all employees have working for them their department head and the City Manager, in the budget process trying to bring about better working conditions, salaries and so forth, and trying at the same time to keep everything in balance. We only have so many resources to work with. Now if we get into the matter of collective bargaining, it appears to me that instead of having the Department Heads and the City Manager working for the employees, you are going to have them working against them. They are going to back them right into the corner. Possibly and probably they have a different concept of it. Everything I have heard and I have talked t people that have been in the public sector and under contracts, they have come to the realization that many restrictions have been imposed on them, the rules have been tightened up over what they were previously and they really haven't gained that much from it. When you get down to talking about what this State Law allows, the conditions of employment, it is pretty narrow. The Department Heads at the present time, and the supervisors have a lot of latitude in how to operate their departments. If the guy wants 15 or 20 minutes off to go take care of some private business, they do it, it is a two way street. As long as that employee is doing a good job for them, producing and so forth, they try to accomodate the employee; but what happens, everything has to be spelled out in black and white, and you can't deviate from it. So I think if these fellows aren't taking that into consideration, it would behoove them to do so." Commissioner Usher said,"Well, I like the Chief's response too, because I think the whole thing is a matter of communication. I don't care who or what, who is at fault or what side should have done what. If we can maintain communication then I think we have got the job done, and if the Chief thinks maybe they could d a little bit more towards communicating, let's try it and see if it doesn't help. That is the key to the whole thing. Go a little extra mile, make a little more extra effort. But I agree with you, Bill. Once it goes the other direction it is going to be very defined, there will be no deviation or latitude. I don't think anybody wants that, yet." Commissioner Duckers said, "We had ample opportunity to hear about this last week at the National Conference of Cities meeting, where the cities that hav collective bargaining are in such a mess that you can't believe it, and we all said what a relief it is to come back to Salina, Kansas, to an area where you can be fair with your people and they are fair with you and they do you a good job. I know better than anyone in this room what a super job the Salina Fire Departmen does, like run clear across town in three minutes. I talked to people from Gary, Indiana, where it takes an hour to get a policeman to your house after a holdup. Thirty minutes to get to a fire, and we don't know how good we have it here, and we want to be fair with the people, but we don't want to place ourselves in a position where we become a Kansas City. Mayor Wheeler talked about their problem down there, firemen wouldn't go fight fires, we don't have that in Salina. I fo. one want to keep it that way, but I want to be fair to the people." 211 A MOTION was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by Commissioner Simpson that the Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners be adjourned. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. D. L. Harrison, City Clerk Commissioner Usher said, "That way would be fairer, because it is a two way street. Communications is a lot of it." Mayor Caldwell asked, "Are there any further comments? We have a firem there, do you have any comment?" There was no response. Mayor Caldwell asked the Commissioners what they wanted to do with this matter. He asked Commissioner Simpson if he had enough knowledge of this? Commissioner Simpson replied, "Well, I don't know if you are calling for a vote, or just take it under consideration. I would certain want to familiarize myself more with K.S.A.75-4321. I think a study committee of the Senate now is looking at S.B. 333, I'd I prefer to familiarize myself more with the act if we are actually going to vote on something. I have no further comment: beyond that at this time." Mayor Caldwell asked the commissioners what they should do with the request from Mr. Todd. Mr. Bengtson explained that the Commissioners do have a request, and that they can either vote to accept the request and adopt it, or to reject it, or to take it under advisement. Commissioner Simpson said, "In light of the fact, as I stated, I would like to familiarize myself more with this law and see what legislative study committee is going to do with it, if anything, and the - as was mentioned by Commissioner Usher, an update of our employee's manual, I would move we table the consideration at the present time.." The motion was seconded by Commissioner Duckers. The Mayor called for a vote on the motion. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. The Commissioners did not bring anything to the floor for discussion. A MOTION was made by Commissioner Usher, seconded by Commissioner Simpson that the Regular Meeting of the Board of Commissioners be adjourned. Ayes: (5). Nays: (0). Motion carried. D. L. Harrison, City Clerk